Shakespeare or Tyndale?

[Linna Heartbooger]

...was just wishing that a little of the same degree of mercy could bave been spread a bit wider by the Chosen People as they progressed into the Promised Land.

Well, that's not an uncommon response; one I've shared... (and even now, don't I feeeel like it should be different?) it's always a bit unnerving that God was the one sending them.
This is even where that word herem that Donaldson uses for one of his ravers... which I think is often translated "devoted to destruction."

Have found scraps of reassurance elsewhere in the Bible, though... (actually, in parts that you've read) lemme know if you're interested.

A lady who I work with who has a fair knowledge of the Bible seemed to think I have [possibly] covered the worst of it [if that's a fair way to describe it] from that point of view, and that the reading would get 'easier' in this sense from now on

Good stuff!

Also, heard a neat quote about the artistry of the King James Bible... don't want to look it up now though.

[peter]

Hi Linna. Regarding the pieces of reasurance to be found, I'll pass on that, though not for lack of interest but more because I'm trying to let the text 'wash over me' and work it's [literary] magic as a continuum rather than by in depth consideration of pieces. I'm through Judges and a fair way into The First Book of Samuel now [Saul is getting into his stride] and I think both you and my work-mate were right; there's still the battles etc, but the 'tone' is somewhat different. There doesn't seem to be the element of vindictiveness that I felt in the earlier parts.

I may have said that earlier this year I was in Jordan and visited many of the actual places that are currently being mentioned [Moab, Edom, Nebo etc...]. I stood upon Mt. Nebo and looked out over these lands and the reading plus this experience has brought home to me how it was actually a pretty small area that the events occured in. Will let you know how I progress.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Hi Linna. Regarding the pieces of reasurance to be found, I'll pass on that, though not for lack of interest but more because I'm trying to let the text 'wash over me' and work it's [literary] magic as a continuum rather than by in depth consideration of pieces. I'm through Judges and a fair way into The First Book of Samuel now [Saul is getting into his stride] and I think both you and my work-mate were right; there's still the battles etc, but the 'tone' is somewhat different. There doesn't seem to be the element of vindictiveness that I felt in the earlier parts.

Back at the Bible reading: yay.

I may have said that earlier this year I was in Jordan and visited many of the actual places that are currently being mentioned [Moab, Edom, Nebo etc...]. I stood upon Mt. Nebo and looked out over these lands and the reading plus this experience has brought home to me how it was actually a pretty small area that the events occured in. Will let you know how I progress.

I admit I've been a tad envious of your world-traveler experiences before..
But this one I'm just happy about... COOOOOL!

I've got a riddle for you... I think it's tough but awesome.

In the context of ancient history:
"What is a nation?"
In the context of rural cultures barely-touched by immigration/globalization:
"What is a city?"

I'm sure somebody else could put my words into a better structure, but... eh.

...or the riddle may be too easy for you; not sure.

[peter]

Just rising after a late shift at work Linna [and facing another shortly] so the old [old being the operative word ] grey matter may not be best up to speed yet. I'll mull over your riddle during a long and tedious 8 hours and we'll see what comes out of it!

[Linna Heartbooger]

Alright... I'm gonna go and ...erm, promote... your thread on u's twitter-like-trending thread in GenDisc again.

I can't make people not post their solutions here but, I can glare at them, or tell them they should pm me.

*glares at anyone attempting to solve the riddle before peter gets home*
PM me if you want to prove you've solved it independent of peter, if you think you have a solution.

[peter]

"Too easy," she said!

[Linna Heartbooger]

It may be slightly wrong the way I first wrote it.
I should change it... the last line, instead of reading "What is a city?" should read:
"What is a village?"

(I know a good hint!)

I've been thinking & wondering how the Bible-reading quest is going.. if you have time to write a post on it!

Edit: Added "It may be slightly wrong the way I first wrote it."

[peter]

Gosh Linna, had forgotten about the riddle - I'm so sorry! I had a 'wretched' shift that day [a 'twitter-mob' of twenty-five kids ran rampant outside the shop and caused all sorts of trouble] and this has thrown me off tracks completely!

The reading is progressing slowly - I'm well into Solomans reign now, in fact beyond it [First Book of Kings, and the Kingdom is about to be divided]. I enjoyed the reign of Soloman, in particular the descriptions of the Temple, the arrival of the Queen of Sheba and the story of the two women and the child, but was dissapointed that in the end he also was found wanting. Stll, c'est la vie.

[edit; I've had a look at the riddle Linna and I don't think I'm going to get it! [never was the sharpest pencil in the box!] Leave it with me and if inspiration dawns then I'll shout. If not I'll cheat a bit and do some internets research [but I promise I'll tell you so if I do - maybe ].

[Linna Heartbooger]

Gosh Linna, had forgotten about the riddle - I'm so sorry! I had a 'wretched' shift that day [a 'twitter-mob' of twenty-five kids ran rampant outside the shop and caused all sorts of trouble] and this has thrown me off tracks completely!

Argh! Sounds stressful.
Sometimes I get thrown off track too when real life gets crazy.
Such as lately!

I'm going to answer the riddle since I have in fact been told that there was a flaw in the way I posed the question by someone I respect.
Answer: a family.
In fact, I think that in a typical ancient near-Eastern village, everyone would be related by familial ties...with a few exceptional cases... like the widow who doesn't have children...

The reading is progressing slowly - I'm well into Solomans reign now, in fact beyond it [First Book of Kings, and the Kingdom is about to be divided]. I enjoyed the reign of Soloman, in particular the descriptions of the Temple, the arrival of the Queen of Sheba and the story of the two women and the child, but was dissapointed that in the end he also was found wanting. Stll, c'est la vie.

"the reading is progressing slowly" he said.
umm, I feel you should be warned now: if you allude to your Bible reading rate in front of Evangelicals who don't know you very well... they will likely think you're trying to brag.
(I know the tribe I'm part of, and we have guilt issues over how little we read the Bible. )

[peter]

The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold,
And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold;
And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea,
When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee

These famous first lines to Byron's poem 'The Destruction of Sennacherib' are refering to an actual historical event, the campaign mounted by the Assyrian King Sennacherib to capture Jerusalem as related in 2 Kings (18-19). For some unknown reason [about which historians apparently still furiously disagree], it appears that having spent the night encamped outside Jerusalem, the Assyrian army simply upped sticks and left the, what should have been, relatively easy field of battle [if such a thing exists]. The poem of Byron follows the biblical account pretty much to the letter, and attributes the 'miraculous' sparing of Jerusalem to God's Angel of Death having passed over the sleeping horde during the night, slaying both men and horses where they slept.

Herodotus, the classical historian however, gives a somewhat different, and more prosaic answer to the unexplained actions of the Assyrians on that fatefull morn; in his account of the action, he writes of the prevailing understanding at the time, that the fields in which the hordes slept were over-run by mice who, atracted to the gut bow-strings of the Assyrians main battle weapon [or at least the first to be deployed] proceeded to eat said strings and thus redering the continued prosecution of the battle by the Assyrians untenable.

Whatever the truth of this [and the Assyrians themselves gave a somewhat different account; they claimed they had effectively won by negotiating favourable terms with the city elders], it was fun to read it and put all the various strands together in the way I've described above.

I hope there is more stuff like this to follow!

[Avatar]

Funny, y'know, I learned that poem by heart for an Eisteddfod when I was 9 or 10. To this day I can recite it entirely and at will. I've always thought it sounded great.

--A

[peter]

But did you know Av [and I only learned this a few days ago when writing the above post] that the poem has a rythem intended to mimic the galloping of horses hooves; how wonderfull!

[Linna Heartbooger]

Enjoyed this discussion..
Don't think I've read the poem... curious. (but soooo lazy)

May I ask what an Eisteddfod is?

When I was that age, I was memorizing "Big Red," by J.A. Estes. Looks like I've forgotten most of it tho.

And peter, how goes the continuing quest?

[Avatar]

It's a literature, music and performance festival, Welsh in origin, but done all over the world now.

--A

[peter]

On a bit of a 'slow-burn' at the moment Linah. I've had a couple of library reservations come in that have to be finished within a deadline so I've been concentrating on those [political and philosophical/science stuff which has been coloring my posts in 'other places'].

I'll be picking up where I left off shortly however and no doubt will have further observations to make shortly thereafter .

[Avatar]

New Research May Solve a Mystery Behind Shakespeare’s Sonnets

The life and plays of William Shakespeare have generated academic debate for centuries—and scholars have long speculated about the identity of the man to whom his Sonnets was dedicated. But now one researcher thinks he might have solved the mystery, once and for all.

--A

[peter]

Good effort, but I suspect it'll sit along side all of the other proposed solutions to the 'WH' question. Everything about Shakespeare seems to be 'a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma'!

[Linna Heartbooger]

I have not asked about the ongoing reading-the-Bible-in-all-its-literary-glory quest lately... (sorry!)
...and it's occurred to me that I may be missing out on things I want to hear!

What's new, peter?

[peter]

Hi Linna ,

It's been a bit slow by virtue of having had so many other books that have library deadlines or pertain to ongoing discussions in this place, but I have managed to have a read of some of the 'poetry' based works in the Old testement - and some other works as well; let me see if I can bring you up to speed.

I've read The First Books of Esdras and the Maccabees, The Book of Nehemiah, The Words of Amos, The Word of the Lord Unto Hosea, Micah The Morasthite, The vision of Issiah, the Word Unto Zephaniah, The Burden of Habakkuk and am currently in The Words of Jeremiah.

[nb Linna, I am reading a version of the King James Bible designed to be read as literature and so the ordering [or even the titleing] may not follow the conventions that you are used to. The books are ordered as follows; The Historical Books followed by the Prophetical Books followed by the Poetry, Drama, Story and Philosophy. I would asses that I am just over half way through the Old Testement. In case my progress should sound spectacularly good I must also emphasize that the text is abridged to remove much of what the editor [Ernest Sutherland Bates] saw as repetition that detracted from the flow of the narrative thus making it very difficult to read. I hasten to add, he was at pains to say in his introduction that this 'abridgement' did not go so far as to remove the repetition and restatement that does so much to give Hebrew Poetry it's very distinctive and powerfull charachter, but was used judiciously to enhance the 'reader experience' and thereby make the work the more acessable. I have to say that to my mind he has done an admirable job in this respect.]

In respect of my thoughts as I read on [albeit in an intermitent way], I was rather saddened by the 'prohibition on mixed marriages' of The Book of Nehemiah, and again somewhat dispirited that we had gotten back into the 'fire and brimstone' mode in some of the Prophetical works - but oddly even against this sometimes savage background I find the words somewhat soothing to read. Perhaps it is the superb prosody of the translation that 'works this strange magic' - or who knows, maybe something more - but whatever the case, slow as my progress is it's certainly turning out to be a worthwhile excercise if for no other reason than I find I can slip back into it 'like a glove' whenever I choose.

[Orlion]

In case my progress should sound spectacularly good I must also emphasize that the text is abridged to remove much of what the editor [Ernest Sutherland Bates] saw as repetition that detracted from the flow of the narrative thus making it very difficult to read.

At the risk of being offensive, I will (with implied hyperbole) say: Burn that garbage!

It's a pet peeve of mine (that I shall go into in the appropriate thread) when editors decide to abridge works to make them "easier" and more "palatable" to the "masses". You always lose something: ALWAYS! Particularly in the Bible, where repetitions of various laws show a dynamic culture that actually changes over time. (Last part of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy)... and that's all lost because some pretentious scholar thinks some house wife can't be bothered?

But I best get off my soap box before I completely hijack this thread.

I hasten to add, he was at pains to say in his introduction that this 'abridgement' did not go so far as to remove the repetition and restatement that does so much to give Hebrew Poetry it's very distinctive and powerfull charachter,

I find that when reading the Prophets or psalms or what not, this characteristic is extremely useful in understanding what's being said. If a line is confusing, it's great the same idea/concept is repeated in a different way before or after it. Along with some historic commentary, this makes what could be a dense work incredibly understandable.

In respect of my thoughts as I read on [albeit in an intermitent way], I was rather saddened by the 'prohibition on mixed marriages' of The Book of Nehemiah, and again somewhat dispirited that we had gotten back into the 'fire and brimstone' mode in some of the Prophetical works

You've probably heard the term: product of its time. Most of the Prophets were written during violent war periods, usually during conflict with Assyria (Hosea and something like the first fifteen chapters of Isaiah), Babylon (Jeremiah, Ezekial, another portion of Isaiah, Habbukuk), and Persian occupation (Daniel, Ezra, Esther, Nehemiah, still another portion of Isaiah)... in other words, they write about fire and brimstone because they are living in fire and brimstone. These writings reflect these conflicts, instructions to preserve their cultural heritage, and hope that their nation will rise again from their fallen condition.