Kevin's Watch

If the Giants have the gift of tongues, why didn't they translate Kevin's First Ward? Admittedly this would not have helped with the Oath of Peace blocking the usage of the lore contained within the Ward. But it would have been one less stumbling-block.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If the Giants have the gift of tongues, why didn't they translate Kevin's First Ward? Admittedly this would not have helped with the Oath of Peace blocking the usage of the lore contained within the Ward. But it would have been one less stumbling-block.

You presume that the gift of tongues applied to the spoken and written word. I always assumed it just applied to the spoken word.

Also, I think one of the difficulties in translation is that you had to understand lore to translate it. Think about translating Newton's Prinicipia without knowing calculus. Sure, all the language bits would carry over but the maths would kinda transcend the languages, no amount of Latin will help you understand those portions.

Am I misremembering here, but did the Giants not win the gift of tongues after the time of the Lost? If that was the case they may never have had access to it. I don't remember it being mentioned until TC meets the Search in the 2nd Chronicles.

u.

ussusimiel wrote:Am I misremembering here, but did the Giants not win the gift of tongues after the time of the Lost? If that was the case they may never have had access to it. I don't remember it being mentioned until TC meets the Search in the 2nd Chronicles.

u.

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned by Foamfollower in Lord Foul's Bane. The Lost had visited the Elohim before they ended up in the Land.

But to verify, I'd have to reach all...the...way to my bookself!

Orlion wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If the Giants have the gift of tongues, why didn't they translate Kevin's First Ward? Admittedly this would not have helped with the Oath of Peace blocking the usage of the lore contained within the Ward. But it would have been one less stumbling-block.

You presume that the gift of tongues applied to the spoken and written word. I always assumed it just applied to the spoken word.

Also, I think one of the difficulties in translation is that you had to understand lore to translate it. Think about translating Newton's Prinicipia without knowing calculus. Sure, all the language bits would carry over but the maths would kinda transcend the languages, no amount of Latin will help you understand those portions.

There's some of that, O, I'm sure.
But WWE is also presuming the Oath is blocking the USAGE of the lore.
I think that is wrong. [just my not-humble opinion, my bookshelf is 1000 miles away, but I'd probably be too lazy to look if it was in arm's reach.]
The Oath is blocking understanding/comprehension itself, not usage.
The New Lords got a hammer and a nail...their Oath isn't keeping them from picking up the hammer and hitting the nail, it is preventing them from understanding what the hammer is FOR.

According to LFB, which I am in the process of re-reading, even words that were simple to understand in one context of the Ward were difficult to translate in another context. That's according to Atiaran.

It could also be that simply understanding what was translated was blocked by the Oath.

The Bloodguard should have been capable of translating the First Ward since they were alive in Kevin's day. Were they unwilling to do so due to their distrust of power? Or maybe they had no ability to read Old Lordish.

I think we can assume that both the Giants and the Bloodguard would have been under strict instructions from Kevin about the keeping of the First Ward and the terms on which it would be made available to the people of the Land when they returned after the Desecration..

DrPaul wrote:I think we can assume that both the Giants and the Bloodguard would have been under strict instructions from Kevin about the keeping of the First Ward and the terms on which it would be made available to the people of the Land when they returned after the Desecration..

I've done some research and determined that the Bloodguard would not know how to translate any Wards. According to the GI, the Wards were written in a language different from conversational Old Lordish which was the same Land's English that Covenant understood.

It's possible that that Oath of Peace hindered even the translation capabilities of the Giants. Who knows?

Since the Oath of Peace bound the Lords and the Landfolk, not the Giants, I do not think it would have affected their gift of tongues. Similarly, the Vow only bound the Haruchai, so only they went without sleep, death or wives.

OTOH, the Giants were aware of the peril of Unearned Knowledge. This is what I believe is the crux of the answer to WotWE's question.

Savor Dam wrote:
OTOH, the Giants were aware of the peril of Unearned Knowledge. This is what I believe is the crux of the answer to WotWE's question.

that's true. but they also know some things depend on words not at all.
And I'm going to insist the Ward problem had little or nothing to do with "language" or "translation."

Look at it this way, perhaps: Mhoram had, linguistically, managed the First Ward. [I believe he even tells TC outright, "we understand the words/instructions, but we're still missing something].
Then, later, he can wield the krill---his understanding has transcended not just what was in the First Ward, but leapt beyond Wards 3, 4, 5, mastered the essence of 6--maybe they had found 3 by then...but still.
The problem isn't in words or speech, it is in will and spirit.
It's the difference between not having Roast Beast cuz you don't know how to make it...and not having it because you are a Vegetarian.
It's not a physical problem, it is metaphysical.
Not mechanical/technical---philosophical.

I think the Giants actually did help with the initial translation. (I am pretty sure there was a line about that somewhere). But that didn't give them the power. As noted above, and explained throughout the Chronicles, the power to achieve anything itself comes from within the person wielding it, with the tool merely influencing how it is expressed. A tool (Wards of Kevin's Lore, the Ring, the Staff, Graveling, a Rukh, lianar, "pitch", or even a person) cannot exceed its wielder. Conversely, a tool wielded by one who is not skilled or attuned to it cannot achieve its full potential, and could potentially rebound against even a powerful user. (think Drool and the Staff Mk I)

The manipulation of EarthPower - as described in the Wards - is a tool for the of expression of the Human spirit. Even understanding the words, the Giants are lorewise enough to know that this tool is not apt to their hands, or hearts. Thus they were the perfect guardians of the First Ward.

Hey all.

I'm not all that sure that the Wards were written works at all. For example, one of them was that odd character Amok (?) who led Elena and Covenant to the drinking of the Earth Blood and the breaking the Law of Death; he was not a written Ward.

I think it's assuming much to think that the Wards were handbooks that explained in written word the thoughts of Kevin. Perhaps some of them were, but not all of them.

peace,
revel.

PS, sorry if I don't remember well, I read the novels back in the 70s, have only reread them for the dozenth time recently and don't have all the names at hand....r.

revel wrote: I think it's assuming much to think that the Wards were handbooks that explained in written word the thoughts of Kevin. Perhaps some of them were, but not all of them.

Agree completely. Even in the cases where words mattered [words of power, for instance...the perfect thing] the words were not enough. Not even close to enough.

Hey revel, and welcome to Kevin's Watch

At a very, very, very, abstract level - just for fun and with a grain of salt - I like to think of the First Ward of Kevin's lore as being Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. Of course, looking at this more closely and in greater detail will render it totally absurd.

The Eoman responded in litany:

"Giant-troth Revelstone, ancient ward--
Heart and door of Earthfriend's main:
Preserve the true with Power's sword,
Thou ages-Keeper, Mountain-reign!"

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 146#981146
Link and excerpt taken from Chord Hurn's post in the 1st Chronicles Dissection.

from Lord of the Rings: Minas Tirith.

And there where the White Mountains of Ered Nimrais came to their end he [Pippin] saw, as Gandalf had promised, the dark mass of Mount Mindolluin, the deep purple shadows of its high glens, and its tall face whitening in the rising day. And upon its out-thrust knee was the Guarded City, with its seven walls of stone so strong and old that it seemed to have been not builded <sp?> but carven <sp?> by giants out of the bones of the earth.

Hey all.

@Vraith: exactly. There were, after all, only seven "words of power" and I'm not sure we were given all seven (my current reread is after three decades of not having reread any of the books, so memory may fail!) in any of the tomes.

Actually, the written word didn't seem all that important in the realm of The Land. Songs and stories were more of an oral tradition. Other art forms were plastic, such as marrow-meld and even tapestries. The only musical instrument I remember is Pitchwife's flute, so I would doubt that even music was noted down. I also don't recall any reference to paper or scrolls or the like.

So, again, I would suspect that the Wards were so difficult for the New Lords to decipher precisely because they were not written, but rather presented in symbolic forms or through oral traditions.

@Vizidor-- nice allusion there. Was it SD consciously making that referral to one of the books that is known to have been on his reading list, or was it simply a casual similarity? I'd suspect the former.

peace,
revel.

In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] was wrote:The Warhaft was carrying a small iron chest.

When Mhoram reached the fire, he spoke in quiet wonder. "The power was a defense placed here by High Lord Kevin. Beyond this tunnel lies a chamber. There we found the Second Ward of Kevin's Lore the Second of the Seven."

REVERENTLY, Prothall took the chest. His fingers fumbled at the bindings. When he raised the lid, a pale, pearly glow like clean moonlight shone from within the cask. The radiance gave his face a look of beatitude as he ventured his hand into the chest to lift out an ancient scroll. When he raised it, the company saw that it was the scroll which shone.

So, the second ward, if nothing else, was a scroll.

In [i]The Wounded Land[/i] was wrote:They entered a large chamber crammed with tables, walled to the ceiling with shelves. Hundreds of scrolls, caskets, pouches, periapts filled the shelves. The tables were piled high with staffs, swords, scores of talismans. The light came from three of the richest caskets, set high on the back wall, and from several objects on the tables. Dumb with astonishment, Covenant recognized the small chest which had once held the krill of Loric Vilesilencer. The chest was open and empty.

There were other scrolls around, for whatever reason.

Thanks, wayfriend, for pointing that out. Again, my memory of the books is dim despite a marathon reread over the past couple of months.

So, there were scrolls; still, I kind of stand by what I was trying to say earlier, not much emphasis is placed upon the idea of translating the written word and there is a good deal of vagueness when the Wards are spoken about. I continue to believe that they were much more complex than, say, a holy book or a how-two on bringing blue flame from the Staff of Law.

Is there any mention of any kind of library, for example? And I don't recall any references to people pouring over those scrolls. That "large chamber" in "The Wounded Land" sounds more like a junk or storage room than a study hall to me....

peace,
revel.

I think Amok himself wasn't that different from the written Wards - his utterings were as difficult to interpret as the written ones must have been.

I've always envisaged the Wards been written in a sort of Nostradamus prophecy-like verses; having a meaning on the surface, but damned difficult to decipher what they actually want to say.
Also look at the Seven Words: you not only had to know them, you actually had to know how to say them, otherwise they would barely have any effect at all. The same must have been true to many portions of the Wards.

I agree.

I always looked at the Wards as specific ways to impart specific knowledge and in some instances that knowledge led to power.

The Words of Power.. which they were able to figure out but for some reason they didn't figure out one of them. I remember a line from one of the books where a Raver said something about them not pronouncing them well.

Amok was the 7th ward in that he was a guide to show them where the Blood of the Earth was and would only show them that if they said "Power of Command". But he was not supposed to come to them until after they had found and understood the first 6 wards and understood what the 7th ward really was.

So if they had all the first 6 wards they still might not have known to say "Power of Command" even after they realized he was the 7th ward.

Hey all.

I'd hazard to suggest that each of the Wards was quite different from the other six.

We know, thanks to wayfriend's reminder, that the 2nd was some type of scroll (though what it contains, be it poems or music or diagrams or spells or recipes is not explained).

We know that the 7th and final Ward was a type of guide to the Earth Blood (and we also know that Bannor was in on the secret, as it was he who told Elena what she needed to say, so even Bannor or the entire Bloodguard were part of that seventh Ward in a way).

We even know that the trigger to the 7th Ward was Loric's Krill. That might even suggest that the Krill itself, or at least the knowledge needed to bring it to life, was the 6th Ward.

That's three of the Seven. Anyone remember anything about Wards 1, 3, 4 and 5? There might be clues somewhere. (the First was brought to the New Lords by the Giants, but were we told what it was besides being the 1st Ward?)

peace,
revel.