Kevin's Watch

Okay.

You may have read one of my posts elsewhere on the site that I still haven't been able to make myself read TLD after trying dozens of times to get into the book since I bought it. I finally decided that there was a significant emotional disconnect that needed to be explored before I would be able to move forward. So even though my reading time is somewhat limited I have chosen to re read the entire Chronicles from the beginning. I have pushed through LFB and have moved through a good portion of TIW and I am genuinely excited about re exploring Covenant's world as it evolves through the three series. (That's right. Covenant's world not Linden Avery's world. However I'm open to the idea that the re read will at least soften my position that LA is the story's usurper protagonist in the Last Chronicles).

I have to admit that there were a few character moments while reading LFB that I actually welled up with emotion. I guess I've reached an age where I'm not only looking for moments of intense action i.e. The Slaughter of the Celebration of Spring, The Battle of Soaring Woodhelven, etc.

My greatest hope is that by the time I reach the Last Chronicles I have regained my dauntless affinity for the series as a whole and will be able to complete the read with something approaching genuine enthusiasm.

Wish me luck.

-Tom

Best of luck.

+JMJ+

Good on ya, mate! Last Chronicles is da bomb.

I did the same thing back when TLD came out. I started from LFB about 5-6 months before TLD's release and by the time it came out, I was about halfway through FR.

The entire chronicles taken together is a heck of a story. I'm ambivalent about the way TLD ended, but the overall story is quite good.

Good luck, Tom! May it be an enjoyable journey!

Good luck Tom.

--A

Best of luck, Tom!

If you want some advice about dealing with Linden:

Spoiler

Remember that Covenant can't reach his full potential without Linden, just as Linden can't reach her full potential without Covenant. That's why they were thrown into a "dream" together. So: She's not an usurper. She's like the red power ranger to Covenant's blue. No red, no megazord.

Wayfriend. My issue with Linden comes down to one simple fact. I want to read a story about Thomas Covenant. All other considerations are secondary. When I feel I'm reading a story about someone I don't have as much interest in I just keep thinking "where is TC? What is his POV? What would he do in this situation?" Spending too much of the story on a character other than TC forces me to lose interest and ultimately we arrive at why the Last Chronicles have been a bit of a swing and a miss for me.

However the re read should provide opportunities for me to develop interest in LA that I've never had before.

Good luck Tom.

I tried this with....and I actually had to Google the title....Fatal Revenant. Even with a running start, once I hit Runes, I bogged down so badly I couldn't continue.

And yeah....Linden. In prior re-reads, I simply omitted TOT, as the salient points can be picked up from the WHGB in WGW. Sure, you miss the breathless escape from the Sandhold (which totally makes that book), but you also miss hundreds of pages of Linden.

Cail,

You mentioned something that I've been a bit concerned about and that is after reading the first and second trilogies, joyously running along like a Ranyhyn set free on the Plains of Ra I may lunge headlong into a narrative slog once I open the pages of the Last Chronicles. I am hopeful that my momentum will carry me on through to the end but my effort could end similarly to yours.

I'm currently reading my favorite book of the series, The Illearth War which is in my mind the Empire Strikes Back, Wrath of Khan, Aliens, Terminator 2, Spiderman 2, X-Men 2 book of the series and is always a satisfying read.

+JMJ+

People speak of Linden as if she's some sort of afterthought.

Inasmuch as everything after 1st Chrons is an afterthought, then yeah, I s'pose so. But that's about as far as that goes.

Linden is integral.

It takes a lot of insight, empathy and intuition for a man to write credible female characters. It takes a lot of insight, empathy and intuition for a man to read credible female characters.

Linden isn't a credible female character. She's a whiner. She embodies so many negative female stereotypes that she's a caricature.

But hey, thanks for noting my lack of insight, empathy and intuition in such a passive-aggressive way.

+JMJ+

Cail wrote:Linden isn't a credible female character. She's a whiner. She embodies so many negative female stereotypes that she's a caricature.

But hey, thanks for noting my lack of insight, empathy and intuition in such a passive-aggressive way.

I'm sorry to hear that you're not diggin' Linden. Dig deep.

I would contend that what is being observed is not so much stereotypes as archetypes, and that SRD's use of archetypes for almost all central characters in the Chrons is intentional.

A discussion of how he writes female characters is a whole thread in itself...and has to consider far more than Linden or the other females (human, Giant, and eternal) in the Chrons.

I think Linden is a fantastic character, as I've been saying for years. However, I agree with Tom that she should have been used more sparingly as a POV character. It was a nice trick, however, to carry the story in parts where TC is unconscious, in stasis ... dead.

Tom, I used to think TIW was my favorite, too, until my Grand Reread prior to TLD. However, that time around I found TPTP to be better both in the actual writing and the story itself. I was surprised. In fact, each book kept getting better until WGW (which, to my dismay, was not nearly as good as I remembered, even the ending ... which I've argued elsewhere was a horrible deus ex machina). I do not recommend skipping TOT! It's the best of the bunch, in my opinion.

Cail, I got bogged down in Runes, too, despite knowing it was coming and having low expectations. A 'running start' a great way to describe it. But FR is awesome. Easily the best of the LC, especially the first half.

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+

Cail wrote:Linden isn't a credible female character. She's a whiner. She embodies so many negative female stereotypes that she's a caricature.

But hey, thanks for noting my lack of insight, empathy and intuition in such a passive-aggressive way.

I'm sorry to hear that you're not diggin' Linden. Dig deep.

Not sure who you are, but I've been reading this series since the early '80s. I've dug deep, and Linden's simply not a good character.

SD - That's a fair distinction to a point. The writing in LFB, and thusly the initial characterizations are....simplistic to the point of stereotype. They may have evolved over time as SRD became a better writer, but they're still relatively simplistic.

Tom hits at the heart of it in his initial post.....These books are the chronicles of Thomas Covenant, not Linden Avery. While TC can be a royal pain in the ass as a main character, his story and motivations are established so well in the initial three books, that stepping away from him in order to spend hundreds of pages listening to Linden's internal self-doubt just takes all the air out of the narrative.

Linden's worst sin though is that she doesn't grow. Suffering through Runes, her internal monologue wasn't appreciably different than it was in TOT.

Zar - WGW has been my favorite of the series since I read it. TOT has been my least favorite, for reasons that should be obvious. It's grown on me though, other than the Linden stuff. The problem (which I wrote about probably 10 years ago when I got here) was that the Worm stuff only appeared in that book. It seemed like an afterthought, and (to my mind) unnecessary to the story.

The entire Brathairealm subplot kicks massive ass though.

+JMJ+

Cail wrote:

Wosbald wrote:

Cail wrote:Linden isn't a credible female character. She's a whiner. She embodies so many negative female stereotypes that she's a caricature.

But hey, thanks for noting my lack of insight, empathy and intuition in such a passive-aggressive way.

I'm sorry to hear that you're not diggin' Linden. Dig deep.

Not sure who you are, but I've been reading this series since the early '80s. I've dug deep, and Linden's simply not a good character.

Dude, I'm not trying to give the impression that I'm questioning the authenticity of your Covenant creds.

Besides, I was half-goofin' with ya. And I wasn't specifically responding to you in my initial post (else I'd have quoted you), but was just playing off your seeming Linden-negative post to address a more generalized spirit of anti-Lindenism.

I do think that men who can learn to appreciate Linden can learn to be better men. And I do think that women who can learn to appreciate TC can learn to be better women.

But OTOH, they're books. They're fictional characters. If your path to enrichment differs than mine, if you don't happen to appreciate that which I happen to appreciate, then that's cool. 'Sall good, yo.

Wosbald wrote: I do think that men who can learn to appreciate Linden can learn to be better men. And I do think that women who can learn to appreciate TC can learn to be better women.

Learning to appreciate a fictional woman created by a man can make me be a better man? Damn, I love the Chronicles (well, most of it), but I don't think it makes me a better person. I was awesome to begin with!

I understand that people have connected with these books in ways that they imagine enlightens them, but I don't get that. For me what has always been so amazing about SRD's writing is how he makes it seem to matter, how he generates the illusion of significance. The characters' problems seem to matter; I can see how it's important to them. He makes characters come alive in a way I've never experienced before. But no matter how real a fictional character seems, it's still just a bag of bones, as Stephen King would say. I imagine it makes SRD a better person, but I don't find my worth in other people's writings.

[Edit: On second thought, I can see how appreciation of SRD's themes might make people better humans, or appreciating his story-telling powers can make other writers better writers, but not how appreciating a make-believe woman can make me a better man.]

I'm glad I read this thread. Lots of great and funny posts all around.



It's also always nice to come back to the Watch and read some good ol' classic Linden-bashing.

Anyway, good luck, Tom! One of these days/years/decades I'll probably do a grand re-read again. I've only read through the whole series once. I'll be curious if any of my impressions change the second time.

But my thoughts generally echo what a lot of people are saying here. Although I think TPTP was the one that impacted me the most the first time around. And I think TOT wasn't as bad for me though because instead of focusing on Linden I simply focused on the well-developed giant characters (Pitchwife et al).

I still think I'll start with a Gap re-read first. I don't think I could slog through the Last Chronicles again any time soon...

-jay