Kevin's Watch

This is my first post on the board. I am just rereading the First Chronicles now. Its been about 17 years since I last read them when i was an early teenager. Wow, I'm glad that I decided to reread them. I'm on the Power That Preserves now and I'm enjoying every single word. The more I read the more respect I have for Donaldson as a writer and creator. The Chronicles have so much depth and life to them that I can actually feel my heart start to pound on many scenes.

I do have a small question, Hopefully the question in itself isn't a spoiler but maybe it is so....


****** POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT *********

When Mhoram attempts to summon TC and TC resists he tells him the Secret of the White Gold

Spoiler

You are the white gold.

What I don't understand is 2 fold.

1. How did Mhoram realize this?
2. Why is it true?


I have other questions that I am going to ask in a bit... ah heck i'll ask it now.

Spoiler

How did Mhoram learn the Ritual of Desecration from the bust of TC that Elena made? I don't understand how a bust could contain this information.

I apologize if these questions have been asked before. I've read many of the posts here but I am still confused about these questions.

I never understood this either, but I assumed that this knowledge came to Mhoram in a revelation. He was both seer and oracle as you know. It might be one of those things that are quite obvious once you see them, but before you do they are impossible to know.

OK, here's my take on the desecration matter:

- actually, Amok gives the answer. He says stl "Desecration needs no knowledge. It comes freely to any willing hand." What Mhoram realised that both Covenant and Bannor were capable of extreme things (_he_ did know although TC might not have beileved it at that point), because they were free of any restraints. TC because he was the white gold, unbound by any law in the Land, and Bannor because the extremity of his Vow allowed him to free himself of any fear of death or injury. Mhoram realised that the Lords have been restrained by their OoP because of their fear of Desecration. But Desecration is only power - power has no attributes, good or bad. If you use it for bad, it will become bad. If for good...

Ambiv is exactly right! Mhoram saw that the figure was a combination of Covenant and Bannor.

The fact that Elena purposely carved TC and Bannor together leads me to believe that she knew the secret or had guessed at the secret and wanted to express it in some sort of lasting way in case she died.

As for the other question, I think seeing TC when he summoned him gave Mhoram the knowledge, which he could probably identify when Elena couldn't because he understood the RoD.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Welcome to the Watch, Nightraven! I think the capacity for descecration is inherent in everyone, though it takes great passion to start it; for example, Trell and Landwaster. Covenant was perfect as the saviour of the Land - his leprosy (his, lack of feeling) inhibited his power as well as his unbelief. If the Creator had chosen someone who believed in the land they would have used the White Gold and shattered the Arch, freeing the Despiser - purely because they had the capacity to act, or want to act, upon their passions.

Yes, welcome Nightraven!!

I hadn't considered what Elena had in mind when she made the sculpture. My take is that maybe its significance was an unconscious act on her part. When Covenant thought it looked like Bannor, or one of the other Bloodguard, she said, "You tease me. I am not so poor a crafter." She didn't say anything about it being a combination, didn't try to explain it, or anything. She thought she sculpted Covenant. But somewhere deep down, she knew what she was doing.

As for how Mhoram figured it out from the sculpture, Bannor certainly helped him. The Bloodguard could very likely have understood why the New Lords couldn't figure out Kevin's Lore. They put no restrictions on themselves, knew that the Old Lords didn't either, but saw the New Lords doing so. If there were no other fundamental differences, they might have figured it out. And Bannor hinted at it as best he could, using the sculpture:

After Mhoram and the survivors of the Warward had returned to Revelstone from Garroting Deep, Bannr had explained the history of the bone sculpture.

In fact, he had explained it in unaccustomed detail. His habitual Bloodguard reticence had given way almost to prolixity; and the fullness of his description had provided Mhoram with a first hint of the fundamental alteration which had taken place in the Bloodguard. And in turn that description had led circuitously to the great change in Mhoram's own life.

So Mhoram's thinking, "Wow! What's so special about this sculpture that Bannor turns into a chatterbox?" And:

Intuitively, by steps which he could hardly articulate, Elena's marrowmeld sculpture had taught him the secret of the Ritual of Desecration.

In fact, Ahanna (remember the painter of Lord Mhoram's Victory?) helped him understand it.

"...both ur-Lord Covenant the Unbeliever and Bannor of the Bloodguard require absolute answers to their own lives. With the Bloodguard it was their Vow. They demanded of themselves either pure, flawless service forever or no service at all. And the Unbeliever demands-"

"He demands," Quaan said sourly, "that his world is real and ours is not."

Another smile eased Mhoram's somberness, then faded. "This demand for absolute answers is dangerous. Kevin, too, required either victory or destruction."

So Mhoram understood that what Elena and Bannor were trying to tell him is that the Ritual of Desecration, and Kevin's Lore in general, could not work if your will was not absolute. And the Oath of Peace could not let them be absolute. You can't say, "I'm going to destroy my enemy. Well... You know... Maybe. If I can't figure something else out." War is war, and you go into it with the intent to win, or you don't go into it with the intent to win. And apparently, Kevin's Lore is so infused with that attitude that even peaceful aspects of it are hard to manage with the Oath.

A thought just occured to me. The New Lords were certainly not pacifists. But I wonder if they actually would have been more successful with some parts of Kevin's Lore if they had been. I mean, Gandhi's brand of pacifism is absolute. Maybe the Lore would have responded to their absolute mindset, and they just wouldn't have bothered trying to use some parts of the Lore.


Regarding your first question, the one that's 2 fold:
1. Well, I guess just because he was brilliant. And maybe he saw - as a seer - certain things about Covenant and the white gold. Before he lost his prevision, of course.
2. We've debated this quite a bit here. My opinion is that, though the Creator never explained how it could be, the wild magic is Covenant's. It's not just that he has the ring, because everyone seemed to understand that they couldn't just take the ring from him and use it - they needed Covenant to give the ring - to give his consent. Elena was going to try to use the ring after Triock/turiya took it from him while he was unconscious, but I believe she would have failed. He gave it to Troy, and Troy was able to use it. I won't give an example from the 2nd Chrons, since you don't say if you've read them, but it's the same idea.

IMHO the keyword is "token". The ring is a token of Covenant; an alloy, TC also being an alloy: of madness and sanity, passion and numbness, belief and unbelief. That's what makes him unique. The ring is just a channel, a symbol, a magic staff if you will. It helps him concentrate his magic, but not essential to it.

keyword is "token". The ring is a token of Covenant; an alloy, TC also being an alloy: of madness and sanity, passion and numbness, belief and unbelief.

Interesting, White Gold is an alloy, it isn't pure gold but an alloy of Gold and Platinum(i think).

One of the things that amazes me about TC is his will to go on. In the PTP after his fight with

Spoiler

Pietten

he is about as close to death as a man can possibly be but still his emotions and will drive him onward. Throughout all of the books TC, it seems to me, is in constant despair but he still goes forward. There is always something within himself that pushes him onward even though his self doubts and beiliefs in himself keep him from reaching his full potential with the use of white gold. No matter how bad he messes up things and causes pain in others he still goes onward. Sometimes it is out of hatred for things ie. Foul and Himself and sometimes is it because he doesn't want to fail the people around him, and sometimes it is just because he wants to survive.

I just gotta jump in here.I think with regard to the knowledge of desecration Mhoram came to it by studying Elena's sculpture of Bannor and TC and she aquired it by sheer "luck" or I'd say more accurately misfortune by being placed in her own extremity. Perhaps as she looked at her options and her own passions and what she was capable of her the name of love for the land she also found the depth of her despair and so she melded together the two extremes of life that she saw, Bannor in extreme dedication and TC in extreme passion. Passion and dedication to the extreme melded together could produce desecration.
As for what Mhoram knew about TC being the white gold I think he had observed it in TC before and perhaps knew it but when he saw what Elena saw then he at least could bring himself to believe and utter the truth. I think all the Lords wished to believe that with the white gold ring they could command that power but in reality with all their lore and their restraints even white gold couldn't do the trick....someone like TC who's passion and coldness was fused together within is the only one who could wield that type of power sucessfully.