Kevin's Watch

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I've been going through the dissections of TMOHD and while reading Torrent's post here: https://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/v ... a430#98550 had an epiphany.

Why did Nyle feel wronged enough to betray his king? We know about how Joyce gave his attention to Geraden and overlooked Nyle. That he despised him a bit. It's gone over at length at the end of AMRT. But there is another reason for Nyle to hate Joyce that I haven't noticed till now that is maybe even more important.

In chapter 19, Elega says

”I consider him a friend. And I respect him. He has a-a seriousness of mind?-no, a seriousness of desire which his brothers apparently lack. It is inconceivable, for instance, that he would spend Geraden’s years trying and failing to become an imager. And it also is inconceivable that he would learn Artagel’s skills and then refuse to use them-as Artagel has refused-to rise in command of the King’s guards. There was a time,” she admitted, “when if he had expressed an interest in my hand I would have taken him as seriously as he took me”

Now on the face of it this was just Nyle lacking guts to ask for her hand but that doesn't really fit what we know about these two. They're both determined and will do what they believe in. If they both loved each other and she was prepared to marry him why did nothing happen?

As the story progresses we learn more and more details about the augury Havelock cast about Joyce and which Joyce faithfully follows throughout the story to see its promises realized. There is of course the image of Geraden as an important imager, the first point of contention with Nyle but there is another image: Elega spreading her legs for prince Kragen in his tent, if I remember Havelock's description of it correctly. (an image that might have rather a lot to do with the way prince Kragen was humiliated when he came as the Alend ambassador to Joyce.)

To achieve a future where this image is realized Elega mustn't marry Nyle. We know Joyce betrothed her initially to Geraden which he must have been sure would have come to nothing. We should assume he dissueded Nyle and Elega from getting together in other ways.

So, though Nyle may not have been consciously aware of it, King Joyce sabotaged his love life for the sake of a prophecy. After everything he's been through in the story it's doubtful whether he will ever find happiness in that department.

Cord Hurn wrote:

Merlanthe wrote:As already noted his experiences have made him cautious and hopefully a little wiser but I think being an outsider is a big influence on his being an acceptable contender for the position of alend monarch.

I can definitely see the various alend factions being more willing to accept an outsider who has no previous ties and therefore no bias in his decision making as ruler than a man who has past ties to one of the factions and may favor that faction in future decisions. It also gives the current alend monarch a candidate he can mentor into the role. I'm sure by the time Nyle is handed the reins he will have been thoroughly drilled on everything margonal thinks is necessary to do a good job and probably be quite familiar with the various alend factions and they with him.

From a realistic point of view what is left in mordant for Nyle? He has seemingly spent his life floundering round not knowing what to do with himself and seemingly no one has given him any guidance or direction to follow. In many ways I see him as a milder version of Teresa as they seem to share the same problem, that being a lack of meaning or purpose in their life and an inability to see any for themselves.

Just because Joyce makes a public show of embracing him and forgiving him isn't going to magically change how Nyle lacks direction and meaning to his life or how people will perceive him after everything that's happened. There really isn't anything for him in mordant beside his family who love him but seem unable to give him the help he needs. By becoming a candidate for the alend throne he is able to make a fresh start and find a meaning and purpose for his life.

These are all very good insights, Merlanthe! It makes Nyle's story resolution seem more logical and satisfying.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Terisa chose Geraden while Nyle chose Kragen and they were both right in end.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Damn, I have to reread these books. I can't remember who Nyle is.

wayfriend wrote:Nyle is the angry young man enraged by his lack of standing among those he cares about. Maybe he "sided with Kragen", but it was less out of wisdom and more out of a need to act - and act up, and act out. It was singularly unwise - no, Kragen wasn't right - and he squandered his birthright (respect as the son of the Domne) as the cost.

(Kragen wasn't "right" - he wanted to depose Joyce and replace him with (at best) a puppet ruler. Was he fooled by Joyce? yes. Was he rightly worried about protecting the Congery? sure. But his methods were just violence with high-sounding reasoning. Under exactly the same conditions, Geraden - and Terisa, and Lebbick, and the Tor, and the Fayle, and Quillon, and Havelock - all made the wise choice.)

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Terisa gains insights or exemplars of Ideas from every character in the tale. What did Nyle represent to Terisa?

shadowbindingshoe wrote:He showcase what happens if Eremis wins on the personal level. He's Terisa if she doesn't escape Eremis. He's Geraden if Gilbur was his master long term. He's everyone when Eremis wins at last.