Kevin's Watch

I went to a very interesting talk on Saturday night about the Green Man. No-one knows for sure where the Green Man came from, but the speaker had a theory.

The Green Man, or "foliate head" is found in many parts of the world including India and China. All have something in common - growth comes from the mouth, or eyes and ears, and the head is surrounded by foliage. I must admit that some of the slides that she showed us would not have said "Green Man" to me but now I know what to look out for.

Most of them in the UK and Europe were carved during the 13th and 14th centuries, in churches, cathedrals and monasteries. There are two Carthusian monasteries that have one Green Man each, and no other carvings, as the Carthusians were very austere.

The speaker put forward the idea that the Green Man was originally introduced by the Romans and is a variation of Dionysus or Bacchus, and became a very powerful pagan god. She pointed out that during the latter part of the 13th and through the 14th centures there had been several severe famines, and plagues cumlinating in what we now call the Black Death. The Green Man was carved in religious buildings, often hidden away in very high places or behind screens, but still very beautifully carved, as a sort of backup to Christianity during these hard times. In other words people reverted back to pagan worship side by side with Christianity as extra insurance against the evil of famine and plague.

There are 31 carvings of the Green Man in Lincoln Cathedral. In Hemswell in Lincolnshire there is a monument to a 14th century priest with a Green Man carved at the foot of the recumbent figure.

Has anyone heard any other theories regarding the origins of the Green Man, and what do you think of this one?

Hmmm, used to go to a pub called the Green Man in...uh...Twickenham maybe.

I thought you were referring to the report about an actual green man...will have to look it up, Victorian maybe? Maybe earlier.

--A

That was something else she said that I forgot. Green Man pubs often have Robin Hood on the inn sign!

Haha, not this one. It was the same image you're referring to...sorta put me in mind of an Ent.

--A

Aliens. :nods head firmly: How else could humanity have built things as collosal as Catherals during the middle ages.

Odd that you should say so SerScot, there is a really weird mediaeval account of two green coloured children who were found in a pit in a field and who spoke in a totally indecipherable language. They were taken in to a local home and learned to speak the local dialect and even lost their odd colour over time. They grew into normal adults in all respects, but the mystery of their origin was never solved.

Re the green man, the carving is common in the West country Io, and I'd guess predates the Romans back into Druidic times, but this is a guess and not based on any real knowledge.

Diane Purkiss in her interesting book Troublesome Things ( a history of fairies) states that the green man is a twelfth century and entirely Christian invention.

A lot of Pagans will be disappointed to hear that, peter.

The Green Man (for Pagans) is considered to be a nature spirit. He's associated with Cernunnos, the Horned God. He has a bunch of other names, including Jack in the Green, Herne the Hunter, and (as Av pointed out) Robin Hood, who traditionally dressed in green. Green is also the color associated with faerie.

The Green Knight whom Sir Gawain battles in Arthurian legend is considered, in some circles, to be a representation of pre-Christian nature beliefs. Maybe that's where Purkiss got the idea that he's a Christian invention. But as Io said, he's quite a bit older than that.

I have a print of Ruth Sanderson's November Green Man. You can see it here -- it's the one on the top line, second from left. (I have a print of the lady to the left of him, too. Sanderson does some very cool stuff. )

Got to admit it comes as a surprise to me Ali, but Purkiss is a smart cookie. She's a Fellow of Keeble College Oxford specialising in Renaissance, women's literature and witchcraft. In considering the origins of fairies for which various theories are put forward, she looks at the option of their being pagan Gods reduced in stature,

The Fairy Queen for instance, who is linked with sexuality, with death and the testing of warriors, was often assumed to be a form of the Celtic goddess Morrigu or Morrigan. The Green Knight is often seen as a pagan god the Green Man. (The fact that the Green Man is himself a twelfth century and entirely Christian invention somewhat blunts the force of such an argument.)

I don't know if she's correct (and hope not in fact) but like it or not have to accept that having one assumes, studied the source material, she probably knows what she is talking about.

Wasn't me who made the association with Robin Hood.

--A

Purkiss has also mentioned Robin Hood in the context of 'green', it's association with faery, the wood, etc. Interestingly much of faery mythology comes from 'the boarder line' (if you like) of human experience. In communities that were deeply embedded in large swathes of unknown territory (the deep wood) and where there was little understanding of the phenomena of life, why children sickened and died etc, the vacuum of knowledge was filled by the creation of explanatory myths to account for these by peopling the unknown with elves, banshees and the like. In our day, with no square inch of the planet left unmapped, the abductions formerly carried out by fairies are now pushed back to our new frontier or borderlands with the unknown (ie deep space), and we are abducted by aliens instead!

Avatar wrote:Wasn't me who made the association with Robin Hood.

--A

Oh, fine. Whoever it was, then.

Apparently (Wikipedia) the earliest Green Man carving in India is 8th century.

I think I mentioned Robin Hood. He could have been based on Willikin of the Weald who gathered together lots of archers and played havoc with the invading French in King John's time. RH wore "Lincoln Green", a particular shade of green, so I suppose he could be called a "green man".

Hile Troy or that guy that Mhoram summoned?

peter wrote:Hile Troy or that guy that Mhoram summoned?

to know me is to know of my love of Hile Troy and my contempt for Thomas...