Re-Reading The Gap [Spoilers] [Obviously]

Post by **Cord Hurn** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:42 pm

wayfriend wrote:Dolph Ubikwe is awesome. Best new character of the book.

I agree, and I'm surprised he doesn't have his own thread on here, yet.

Post by **Avatar** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:37 pm

Well, C&O was a wild ride. I ended up enjoying it just as much, for the most part. It wasn't Nick getting the codes that annoyed me though, it was Ciro and Sorus and the mutagen.

Nicks tenure was pretty brief. And obviously, if you didn't know how the story went, you'd think Ciro's crisis had been easily resolved, so it would be a surprise. Knowing though, I was both annoyed and impatient to get it over with. Some slow bits in the middle, but Sorus, Calm Horizons, the Lab, as I said elsewhere, damn these books are good.

Couldn't put it down again, so on, on to This Day All Gods Die.

--A

Post by **Zarathustra** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:00 pm

Avatar wrote:It wasn't Nick getting the codes that annoyed me though, ...
--A

Woops, that's what I meant. Not Angus getting his codes. At that point, it felt like the reversals of fortune had turned too many times. It was emotionally exhausting, for me; somehow it violated my innate sense of story-telling "rules." But I suppose this was prior to Nick getting killed, so even SRD knew that his run was about up. I do like how even though Nick "bested" Angus once again here, it still felt like he was cracking up, like he'd never recover his former glory. Something about his smile and a tic?

I thought this series handled characters better than any other book I've ever read.

It really would make a great series of movies.

Post by **Sorus** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:45 am

Cord Hurn wrote:
wayfriend wrote:Dolph Ubikwe is awesome. Best new character of the book.
I agree, and I'm surprised he doesn't have his own thread on here, yet.

There's a solution for that.

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:57 am

Sorus wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote:
wayfriend wrote:Dolph Ubikwe is awesome. Best new character of the book.
I agree, and I'm surprised he doesn't have his own thread on here, yet.
There's a solution for that.

I'm hoping that nested quoting is part of the solution.

Post by **Sorus** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:12 am

I'd start the thread myself, but I can't think of anything that would do it justice at the moment.

Post by **Avatar** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:40 pm

Zarathustra wrote: Woops, that's what I meant. Not Angus getting his codes.

I didn't even notice you'd typed the wrong name.

I knew exactly what you meant.

Well...I'm done with the Gap. Finished TDAGD yesterday.

Y'know, I don't re-read SRD nearly as often as I reread other, easier authors. This is probably only the 4th or 5th time I've read the whole series since LuciMay sent me the ones I was missing, which was at least 6 or 7 years ago.

But every time I read it, I'm just blown away again. This is not only the best SRD series, I think it's one of the best sci-fi series ever written.

Realising that the entire last book, 750 pages, really just covers the events of a few hours, really puts its intensity into perspective.

--A

Post by **Sorus** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:34 pm

Avatar wrote:
But every time I read it, I'm just blown away again. This is not only the best SRD series, I think it's one of the best sci-fi series ever written.

Realising that the entire last book, 750 pages, really just covers the events of a few hours, really puts its intensity into perspective.

--A

True. All of it.

Post by **Avatar** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:47 am

Haha, I had a weird moment when they were talking about Ciro and the time-delay mutagen...they're like "She gave it to him" and I was thinking "She? Oh, Sorus...but Sorus wouldn't do that..."

--A

Post by **Zarathustra** » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:57 am

This is when Donaldson's claim that his books were "aimed like a laser at the end" was actually true. (I miss those days.) The conclusion is mind-blowingly good. I like ADAHGA better in terms of the transformations--Angus becoming a hero, Nick getting defeated--but really great conclusions are much harder to write. How he pulls all those threads together in an emotional and logical climax, without any clutter or filler, is one of the most satisfying experiences I've had as a reader.

I read this series from day one, when TRS came out. Then I reread every book as the next one came out. Seeing the picture unfold was an unforgettable experience. I can't believe how poorly this series did in sales. Lots of people missed out on some of the best fiction writing ever put to paper. Not only the best SRD, not only the best s.f., but the damn fiction I've ever seen.

Post by **Avatar** » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:15 am

I think Angus' transformation was more explicit in TDAGD...he frequently thinks about the changes in himself.

--A

Post by **Savor Dam** » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:44 pm

True, but also necessary to the narrative structure of the series. We see Angus transforming in ADAHGA, but it is more attributable to compulsion from his core. Only at the conclusion of the story arc can the freed Angus be seen as internally transformed.

Even then, it is ambiguous whether the changes stick. The story of Angus at the helm of Holt's ship remains untold.

Post by **wayfriend** » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:24 pm

Congratulations, Avatar. Is that a world record for a GAP read?

Savor: It always seems to me that, when the author leaves something untold, he or she is not just saying it's inconsequential to the story being told, but is implying that it's going to go just like you imagine it would go. Or that, at least, you won't be too wrong for thinking that.

So, for me, Angus retains his newly acquired morality into the future.

If that doesn't sell you, then Donaldson's discourse in the GI about people driven by fear is another clue. Angus was ruled by fear, and so was greedy and selfish, driven by need. In the end, he faced that fear, and is no longer ruled by it, which Donaldson tells us makes it more likely he will care about other people and morality.

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:For myself, I find it more useful to think of persons as being very crudely divided into two groups: those that choose to care about people other than themselves, situations other than their own, issues larger than their own well-being; and those that do not. The former group tends to evolve ethical structures (however peculiarly defined)--and then live by them. The latter group tends to be ruled by personal *want* and *need* (in other words, by fear).

(09/17/2004)

Post by **Avatar** » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:37 am

Haha, I dunno...I dragged a bit through FK, but once that was out of the way, I just couldn't stop.

Like WF, I think the changes, or at least close approximations of them, stuck.

That said, I'm not sure what he would actually do. Would he go back to piracy but try to avoid killing people? Smuggling? Mercenary work? He's still have to dock places and re-supply, which means he'd have to pay...but we know he can't do business with the Amnion either.

What would he do in a post-Holt universe?

--A

Post by **Sorus** » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:43 pm

Avatar wrote:What would he do in a post-Holt universe?

That could make for an interesting sequel. Wishful thinking...

Avatar wrote:Haha, I had a weird moment when they were talking about Ciro and the time-delay mutagen...they're like "She gave it to him" and I was thinking "She? Oh, Sorus...but Sorus wouldn't do that..."

--A

Fitting with the narrative arc, he needed for her to have a reason to betray the Amnion. There were other factors, of course, but I think that was the tipping point.

Post by **Avatar** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:11 am

Yes, but what I meant was, you are Sorus.

--A

Post by **Sorus** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:45 am

Avatar wrote:Yes, but what I meant was, you are Sorus.

--A

For better or for worse. Desperate people do desperate things.

There's only one aspect of my namesake's character that makes me uncomfortable; I have long since made my peace with the rest.

Post by **Avatar** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:05 am

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

--A

Post by **Cord Hurn** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:46 pm

Sorus wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote:
wayfriend wrote:Dolph Ubikwe is awesome. Best new character of the book.
I agree, and I'm surprised he doesn't have his own thread on here, yet.
There's a solution for that.

There is indeed, Sorus, and I'm considering it!

But I've not yet gotten to C&O in my Gap re-read, being just at the part where Min and Warden discuss the kaze attempt to get Sixten in ADAHGA.

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:02 pm

So I noticed during the latest read that TDOGD if fraught and tense and exciting, but damn does Donaldson repeat everything: each chapter has to re-cap all of the preceding events from another person's point of view; everyone character has to discover what other characters already know. I definitely found myself skimming a lot, to get to the juicy parts. I know I shouldn't.

Like Angus being freed. Apotheosis. Vasectomy. I forgot how good that was.

For four books, Donaldson has all the characters ill-understanding what the other characters are up to. Misinterpreting. But doing the right thing somehow anyway. Part of the explosiveness of the conclusion is all these people finally understanding each other, and being empowered thereby. It's like they are all unchained.

So now Punisher's command module, towing Trumpet, is heading over to Calm Horizons. Finally.

There must have been 10 or 14 chapters with nothing happening and everyone sitting around talking, trying to figure out what to do. It's pretty funny when you think about it.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Re-Reading The Gap [Spoilers] [Obviously]