Kevin's Watch

So, started rereading TRS last night, and as always, I'm struck by how differently it is handled compared to the other books.

TRS is effectively a story (or several stories) about a story. I know we've been using it a lot here and there, but it's sorta meta, don't you think?

--A

The Gap Series is imbued from end to end with plays on perspective. Multiple characters witnessing different fractions of the same events, and arriving at different conclusions; characters interacting in unexpected ways because they have different views on their common situation. I wouldn't hesitate to call this one of the central "themes" of the story ... except it's not really a theme, it's more of a mechanic, or a gimick (in a positive sense) if you will.

TRS catapults us into this gimick from the start, by presenting us with the points of view of the uninvolved, and then diving into the points of view of the involved, and treating us to this feast of differing perspectives, and how perspective changes everything, and how different perspectives collide.

So, no, I would not say that this is meta. Rather, it's a presentation of different perspectives, with perhaps a smattering of a third person omniscient story-teller who encourages us to look at those perspectives.

But I see what you mean - it seems to almost be a story about a story. But I don't think it is, in that there's not really a story about a story, it's just the narrator pointing out that different people in the story have different perspectives of events.

Damn, so close, I was going to start my Gap reread soon, but I wanted to crank out The Martian before it came out in theaters in October.

I'll be starting the Gap around then. Hopefully you don't finish before I start.

-jay

A story which calls attention to itself as a story can plausibly be described as a metastory. The Gap does this both explicitly and implicitly. The title itself implies various levels of the story which are farther or closer to the actual story itself. This explicitly calls attention to the phenomena of stories as such (thus, a story about stories) and how they become substitutes for reality, truth, and understanding ... how they can become either gossip or myth. And by revealing these layers through the technique of various perspectives, the series implicitly calls attention to the role of POV in taking the reader closer or farther from the "truth."

metastory

n.

One story embedded within another.

n.

A story about stories themselves.

One could make the case that there is an "embedded" story within the Gap, namely, Wagner's Ring Cycle. Also, given the points I made above, one could say this is a story about stories ... at least in the first book.

kevinswatch wrote:I'll be starting the Gap around then. Hopefully you don't finish before I start.

Sorry Jay...I've already started FK...

wayfriend wrote:...it's more of a mechanic, or a gimick (in a positive sense) if you will.

Definitely a mechanic...I might have said something like "stylistic device" maybe. It seems far more pronounced in TRS though...certainly in the other books there is the whole "multiple perspectives" but (as far as I remember) none of them share the exposition of the narrator the way that TRS does.

But I see what you mean - it seems to almost be a story about a story. But I don't think it is, in that there's not really a story about a story, it's just the narrator pointing out that different people in the story have different perspectives of events.

I think I have to go with Z's perspective here. For me it is that 3rd person exposition from a point outside of the story (and the perceived stories) that makes me describe it as "meta."

Whether or not it fits some technical definition, it's the self-referential nature of it that suggests it to me.

The "embedded" story Z mentions makes no impact on me though, and I don't really take that into account.

TRS sure is a roller-coaster ride though. And I do like the afterword, especially where he explains what he was actually trying to achieve with the original novella.

Later books, good as they are, largely (as I recall) sacrifice the very mechanic that makes TRS so compelling.

Anyway, on to FK...

--A

Avatar wrote:For me it is that 3rd person exposition from a point outside of the story (and the perceived stories) that makes me describe it as "meta."

Well, remember that when the narrator discusses "the story", he's discussing what the citizens of DelSec are hearing about and gossiping about, and what they don't know. The narrator isn't discussing a book being written about it. So I cannot concur it's "meta", and I cannot concur it's self-referential.

For example, in the Kingslayer series, the author often remarks about the stories that people hear about Kvothe, how he's become legendary. That doesn't make it "meta", does it? I don't think so.

wayfriend wrote:

Avatar wrote:For me it is that 3rd person exposition from a point outside of the story (and the perceived stories) that makes me describe it as "meta."

Well, remember that when the narrator discusses "the story", he's discussing what the citizens of DelSec are hearing about and gossiping about, and what they don't know. The narrator isn't discussing a book being written about it. So I cannot concur it's "meta", and I cannot concur it's self-referential.

I don't think a book has to name or mention itself in the text to be self-referential, nor does it have to be about a book being written about the gossip, etc. It can be about stories themselves in general (as noted in 2nd definition above), which then calls attention to itself as a story implicitly. So it's self-referential in as much as its a member of the class to which it's referring.

wayfriend wrote:For example, in the Kingslayer series, the author often remarks about the stories that people hear about Kvothe, how he's become legendary. That doesn't make it "meta", does it? I don't think so.

Were any of the books in that series named to reflect the nature of stories and their relationship to truth? Was this the initial and often repeated theme throughout the first book? THE REAL STORY has "story" right in the title! It's featured prominently right in the opening paragraphs. Obviously, this is much more than a case of the author remarking that people hear legends about one particular character. It's the initial focus of the entire series, and then cycling through the various levels is what gives the story its shape. All the main characters in TRS embody a confrontation between their perceived roles in others' "stories" vs the truth of their characters. Character arcs are drawn with the breakdown of these illusions in mind. And the role-switching conclusion (for the first book) plays explicitly on the idea of these people as both characters in stories and real people, how they defy not only popular "legend," but also the typical tropes of such stories. It's so meta, it could almost be an episode of Community.

wayfriend wrote:For example, in the Kingslayer series, the author often remarks about the stories that people hear about Kvothe, how he's become legendary. That doesn't make it "meta", does it? I don't think so.

No, I wouldn't call it meta. I'd call that one more "auto-biographical" maybe.

It's a difficult one for me to quantify...maybe, as I said, it's not technically meta. That doesn't change my perception though. The narrator isn't just telling a story, he's talking about stories. That said however,

Zarathustra wrote:Were any of the books in that series named to reflect the nature of stories and their relationship to truth? Was this the initial and often repeated theme throughout the first book? THE REAL STORY has "story" right in the title!

I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with it. Certainly, like the "embedded" story, it has nothing to do with my perception of it as being meta.

Anyway, onto FK now. Probably my least favourite of the series.

--A

You already finished The Real Story??? OK, I guess it's tiny compared to the others, but there's no way I can keep up with that breakneck speed!

-jay

Hahaha, sorry, the only thing that slows me down is if I'm into a game, then I tend to play more than I read.

To get back on topic, FK introduces the inestimable Ancillary Documentation, which I almost always enjoy as much as (if not more than) bits of the story.

I particularly liked (in the first one (datacores)) his description of the tension between the impulse to chaos and the impulse to order, and the claim that both are impulses toward life and survival.

--A

Finished re-reading Mordant's Need 3 days ago, and am into a Gap re-read myself. Am about two-thirds of the way through TRS.

Nice one. I've been slowed a bit by my damn game, so I'm only as far as Nick killing Orn...everything is about to get wiped.

--A

Despite it being my least favourite book, it's still pretty damn good. Davies is born, and they're escaping Enablement.

I loved Morn's bluff when Vector asks about her gap sickness. "What do you think I have a zone implant for?" she shouts at him.

--A

Avatar wrote:Despite it being my least favourite book, it's still pretty damn good.

Agree, and agree. Although, for me, it's the brutality Morn lives through, it's hard to enjoy reading this book.

I think we really get to see how alien the Amnion are. Their point of view is so alien that it's hard to deal with them. Which is, again, part of the 'stylistic device' used throughout the series, how differing POVs can drive conflict.

Yes, I really enjoyed meeting the Amnion again. "Conformity of purpose" and all that. And poor old Marc Vestabule too.

Interesting that suddenly, with no warning, it switches to character POV named chapters in the last chapter.

Were previous chapters not sufficiently character specific? One chapter is Chapter 21, then the next is "Angus."

Then the book ends. With our meeting of, and immediate insight into, Warden Dios.

Anyway, onto ADAHG now. Angus and Milos are en route to Billingate.

--A

My least favorite was Chaos and Order ... despite its satisfying and significant death of Nick, and the awesome battle among the asteroids. I felt that the tide had already turned so many times, it was just too much at this point for Angus to get his codes.

ADAHGA is a close second to TDAGD. Those might be my favorite two Donaldson books. I wish I could read along, but the Tower calls ...

Avatar wrote:Anyway, onto ADAHG now. Angus and Milos are en route to Billingate.

Rereading System of the World, and was reminded just yesterday that "Billingsgate" is an actual place in London, which is historically (since the 1300s) and currently a fish market. Of course, the one on Thanatos Minor is spelled "Billingate" (no S, one G). Still, it's impossible to miss the connection, I feel.

(Bill Gates came much later.)

Yeah, I automatically try and add the "S" whenever I read it.

Zarathustra wrote:ADAHGA is a close second to TDAGD. Those might be my favorite two Donaldson books. I wish I could read along, but the Tower calls ...

Off hand I would have said that this (dark and hungry) and Chaos and Order were my favourite. Now I'm not so sure.

I guess I'll see how C&O goes after this, because right now my favourites are ADAHG and TRS.

Couldn't put it down last night, so as a result, I'm pretty far along...Davies is rescued, and Angus has just let Nick go, after learning the Amnion have Morn.

Obviously having read them before, I knew he was going to rescue him and how, so rather than surprise, I was impatient. Because his rescue of the two is definitely one of the highlights of the series.

We also meet old Sixten here, and can't help but sympathise with his plight...and Dios confides to Min Donner that he wants her to run the cops after his inevitable expulsion.

Even Davies starts to become interesting in this one. And I can't wait for Milos to get his comeuppance.

--A

Damn, Davies Rescue, Morn's rescue, the escape from (and destruction of) Thanatos Minor...That was a great book.

Now it's time for Chaos and Order, and Min Donner is really coming alone. I loved how she briefed the punisher crew...every line more insane and outrageous. And the deadpan finish.

IIRC, we see a lot more "political" stuff happening in this book, but 60 odd pages in I'm enjoying it so far.

--A

Dolph Ubikwe is awesome. Best new character of the book.