Kevin's Watch

Be anything you want in our PC liberal democracies; be disabled, be black, lesbian or gay - take your choice - but don't be ugly. If you are, if you have the misfortune not to have a perfectly symetrical face, the body of an adonis, teeth set by a spirit level - then don't expect to get promotion, don't look for tv or film work, don't expect the path of your life to be smoothed, no matter what area you look at. Your chances of sucess in life are significantly less, in competitions you will have to be extra good to be rated the same, in the courtroom the judge will not look at you as a 'special case'. You will need the mind of a Hawking to overcome the obstacle of your appearence, and one last thing......


.......... don't bother making any whining complaint about it because no one will care , and after all why should they - you're ugly!

The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypkv0HeUvTc

That's why I post here ... no one can see my ugg.

peter wrote:...if you have the misfortune not to have a perfectly symetrical face...


.......... don't bother making any whining complaint about it because no one will care , and after all why should they - you're ugly!

Thank you, peter - take a bow!

This was a reality that I long suppressed acknowledging.
In fact, I was not even able to see it.
I had so many things handed to me that others had to fight for, simply because I had a reasonably symmetrical face.
(I hope I can find that article that a then-teen put out for her youth group to discuss a few years back. It really changed my way of viewing things.)

otoh, the extreme you describe is not necessary.
my teeth include one projecting out in a wacky direction, one missing if you look closely when I smile wide...
...and, in spite of the fact that I live in a place where nearly every adult I meet, and most children have "perfect" teeth, I don't sense huge obstacles.

otoh, I think there's also a "the cycle re-ify's itself" effect where someone who is a cute child gets more positive feedback from people...
...then expects things to go well...
...lives as though the world will treat him/her kindly (and maybe people will just RANDOMLY give him/her gifts!)
...and so they do..
..and so the expectation continues, so the relating to people in a relaxed, confident manner continues...

Dunno if it's quite that extreme, but yes, several studies have shown that those perceived to be "good looking" have more advantages.

--A

I thought afterwards that maybe I had taken the wrong approach in the post and framed it too bitterly - but it is a problem, and one we all partake of in tiny unthinking ways. We look, we think, more kindly on attractive people, we have more time for them. A judge in the UK recently did not impose a custodial sentence on a girl who had knifed her partner. His reasoning he said (and the fact that he gave it at all tells you that he knew he was acting out of the usual) was that he 'did not want to damage her prospects' - but it cannot but have helped that she was beautiful. Many have acknowledged the problem of this bias in competitions: there have been calls for the prestigious Young Musician of the Year contestants to be screened from the judges after several instances where it has significantly affected the results.

I work in a shop where every year we get a new batch of one hundred or so first year medical students as regular customers. These are the successful applicants of a selection procedure that is based on exam results, followed by interview. Many more applicants achieve the required grades than are places available and so the interview part of the process is often the deciding factor on the allocation of places. A look at the successful students of any year will provide a concrete example of this bias in action - and it is unlikely that the interviewers are even aware of it. The bias in favour of the physically attractive pervades every aspect of our society, our lives - I'm not even sure that we could do anything about it (realistically)............but we can at least acknowledge it as a first step.

Avatar wrote:Dunno if it's quite that extreme, but yes, several studies have shown that those perceived to be "good looking" have more advantages.

--A

Appearance and height. Both seem bounded, though. Good looking and taller are better...but TOO symmetrical and/or TOO tall are not. Also bounded by context...a person who is "too" symmetrical for accounting could well have a symmetry deficit for Hollywood.

OTOH: It does appear to be true that better looking people are, in fact, on average, also more intelligent. Not a lot more...but in selection, it only takes a little down the generations.
Sometimes our biases/instincts are right...at least heuristically.
Sometimes they're not: the type/bias of the "dumb jock" is wrong. As a group, good athletes are also more intelligent.

Both those facts could be [probably are] due to good genes clumping over time. Someone who is smart AND pretty AND athletic has a slight advantage [or maybe not slight] over everyone that has none, one, or two of those.

Still...does the generally true thing justify assumptions/decision for particular cases?
No...it's just hard to get around.

Vraith wrote: OTOH: It does appear to be true that better looking people are, in fact, on average, also more intelligent. Not a lot more...but in selection, it only takes a little down the generations.

Hmmm, not sure that that has been my experience overall. Not that some aren't, but the spread seems no more than average / random. (Not based on anything though, purely anecdotal.)

--A

Avatar wrote:

Vraith wrote: OTOH: It does appear to be true that better looking people are, in fact, on average, also more intelligent. Not a lot more...but in selection, it only takes a little down the generations.

Hmmm, not sure that that has been my experience overall. Not that some aren't, but the spread seems no more than average / random. (Not based on anything though, purely anecdotal.)

--A

This isn't the best example...it can be critiqued [[though not completely dismantled/dismissed]] in a number of ways...but it has the advantage of being available publicly and for free:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... ntelligent

Hmmm, seems a convincing argument. In theory though, there shouldn't be any correlation, so maybe the idea that the genes are somehow linked has something to it.

--A

In another example of how appearance pervades every aspect of our media (and trickles into our lives therefrom - or is it the other way around?) we have had a new BBC drama screening centered around a group of British soldiers serving in the Middle East. The female frontline members of the platoon are portrayed by fragile beauties who even in the heat of battle, look like they have stepped of a John Paul Gautier catwalk portraying his new range of designer clothing 'Combat!' This has attracted ridicule even from the notoriously guilty British press.

I think this 'appearanceism' that pervades our society, our thinking is potentially very damaging. The best qualified people are denied the jobs they deserve in favour of the more physically appealing, there is an underlying 'value rating' placed on individuals based on how they look, and the self-image that the young have of themselves becomes damaged or over-inflated with bad consequences in both cases.

As for research that demonstrates that beautiful people really are more intelligent - well they would be, wouldn't they!

--A

Vraith wrote:The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypkv0HeUvTc

isn't that a bit relative to the size of your steeple

Rawedge Rim wrote:

Vraith wrote:The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people
The beautiful people, the beautiful people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypkv0HeUvTc

isn't that a bit relative to the size of your steeple

Yes it's true .. I mean you can't ignore the power of this prejudice in the media. Though I do note that not all news media provide good looking male and female presenters. Al Jazeera doesn't and there are others. I think there is a move away from this prejudice these days in favour of competence lol

I think it's lessened and will probably continue to do so. I don't know about you but if I see absolutely cracking good lookers playing average characters in movies - I prefer they have dirt under their finger nails and present an authentic representation of the average hoe they're acting as. Like your BBC movie about frontline troops - and the woman are portrayed as barbie dolls afraid of breaking a sweat or a nail .. leaves me disenchanted. Totally lost me! But if they are gorgeous looking but functioning as a trooper would - okay! I'm on board. The reality is the world is a giant melting pot.

I was thinking I don't see a person as ugly - but I do. The ugliest people Ive met in my life are pretty rubbish humans, degenerate assholes.. I'll probably favour my kids friends that are cute, but if they are unpleasant - they do not appeal to me.

Yes I think being good looking curries favour but the proof of your worth really isn't skin deep - it goes much, much deeper. If you demonstrate a lack of integrity / decency, that pretty or handsome face, can't bridge that divide.

Absolutely. And my post should in no way be seen in the light of a criticism of those who are born beautiful - they have no choice in the matter and are entirely blameless for the manner in which society reacts to their appearance. Beauty can be a curse to those who possess it and can hamper their path to happiness as much as it can facilitate their path to success. Joan Collins once said that to be beautiful is like being born rich and watching yourself become poorer every day. This comment in itself illustrates the damage that having half your gaze always turned back upon yourself can do.

peter wrote:...Joan Collins once said that to be beautiful is like being born rich and watching yourself become poorer every day. This comment in itself illustrates the damage that having half your gaze always turned back upon yourself can do.

In trying to demonstrate the futility of vanity - or the futility of placing too much of ones hope in ones beauty - a preacher once said something to the effect of:
"One day, they will look in the mirror, and wonder what all the fuss was about."
I now think of this -regularly- if I linger looking in the mirror a just little bit long, and it cracks me up!

I had no such hesitance about trying to think about how beautiful I was or was not back I was a child.
As a little six-year-old girl... one time I saw sort of... lines that stayed after I smiled.. like tiny smile-marks.
I was bothered by that because it was like having a wrinkle on each side of my mouth...
So you know what?
I started intentionally smiling less so those marks wouldn't form.
(think I've reversed that one since, but can you imagine?)

Gosh that's an almost heart-rending story Linna, and one that prompts the question " Where did it come from?" (I mean this need for women always to have half heir gaze directed inward). Is it a natural throwback to 'preening' in the wild - the need to present the best show to attract the best mate, or indeed any mate at all?

Incidentally, this is a notion I only read of recently in the book 'Ways of Seeing' by John Berger. He says this is visible in much art featuring female sitters; men's gaze on the contrary (he says) is all outwardly directed. There is truth in it - the pressure women have to always have to consider the face they are presenting to the world - I think; it's why my wife takes an hour and a half to do in the morning what I achieve in twenty minutes.

peter wrote:Gosh that's an almost heart-rending story Linna, and one that prompts the question " Where did it come from?" (I mean this need for women always to have half heir gaze directed inward)

Well, I don't know, and don't want to take my time and go down that road, but thinking about your question makes me think of another question that I -am- interested in answering...
Q: "How can it be of use, put to good purpose?"

Idea #1:
A woman who is trying to accomplish good ends can purposely improve her appearance to improve her social status to improve her effectiveness at accomplishing the ends she seeks.
(there was a cool quote about responsibility that comes with beauty in a work of fiction by Elizabeth Goudge that I haven't seen in a long time... "City of Bells," or something like that. Hrmm.)

I think that if someone has charisma beyond others in their friendship group / peer group, he or she can take up the challenge of keeping a keen eye (or ear) out for the people who others can't easily listen to.
Then the person with the charisma can be like, "Wait, wait... let's listen to what Jane has to say" if people are unreasonably biased against Jane (as in "plain Jane" or "Jane Eyre" - take your pick.) and don't even realize they're doing it.. and she has a good idea.

Idea #2:
Being really aware of ones appearance can also make you more aware of what other people are doing with their appearance... and thus able to gift a friend or acquaintance with a gift of identifying with them by dressing similarly.
Without saying a word, you can set them more at ease.

Also, something odd that my husband pointed out to me after, I think, reading some analysis... a lot of women's dressing habits, such as trying to dress "sexy" and such... are actually aimed at maintaining female friendships.
I was like, "What? Really?"
And then later, I brought up something related to that to a woman who's way more aware of social norms than I am, esp. regarding fashion.
Her reaction was like, "Aaaaah - high school was horrible! It was like there was this narrow range of what was okay to wear... and everything on one side you'd get criticized for looking bad, and if you go too far over in the other direction you get called slutty."

p wrote:Incidentally, this is a notion I only read of recently in the book 'Ways of Seeing' by John Berger. He says this is visible in much art featuring female sitters; men's gaze on the contrary (he says) is all outwardly directed...

Hmm, I hadn't thought about it.

But good grief, I have spent so much energy really focused on wondering what people thought about me constantly when I just, like, was in the library waiting for a tutoring student, or like was in a store and had to go back to an aisle I'd just been to.
("will they think I'm being weird?")
That's not unique to women, I'm sure. It's just my best example of the sense that everyone (might) be looking at me.

Otoh, I definitely switched from my childhood of "I really want to be pretty and think I could" to a stubbornly-tomboyish adolescence of "I care about many things, and keeping up my appearance is not one of them."
Well, it was half that, half telling myself I was like that while being very interested in trying to craft my persona.


Oh! Last thing... when you started this thread, I was wondering if you were thinking partly of the "Wonder" movie. (I was seeing adverts for it around that time.)