President Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital

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Cail wrote:Then in that case, might makes right, and the Israelis hold the territory, so....

And again, if the Arabs don't want their own, why should the Israelis accommodate them?
Well historically that exactly why the British left .. lol .. as it was their spoil

But hey ..

The issue for me is indeed if a process was in progress - 2 state solution - who knows a peaceful division of territory could have been achieved - pretty confident thats out the window now .. sadly.

But yeah .. what he said LOL
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Cail wrote:And again, if the Arabs don't want their own, why should the Israelis accommodate them?
"Their own"?

Is that a legal designation in line with the norms of a modern Nation-State?

If "yes", then it seems that the Palestinians are legally-constituted citizens of another Nation-State, and thus, Israel would have either a diplomatic or a humanitarian crisis on its hands.

But if "no"; if the Palestinians are an "invented people" (thanx, Newt!), then it seems that they've no legally-constituted "their own" of which to speak, and thus, Israel would have a colonizer's "indigenous-peoples problem" on its hands.


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[double post]
Last edited by Zarathustra on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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If a two-state solution is what the Palestinians really wanted, they've had ample opportunity to have it. They have rejected peace deal after peace deal because what they really want is war ... war that eliminates Israel. They want a single state, and that state is not Israel. Every time Israel has given land for peace, their enemies make it clear they want land without peace.
Charles Krauthammer wrote:While diplomatically inconvenient for the Western powers, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's attempt to get the United Nations to unilaterally declare a Palestinian state has elicited widespread sympathy. After all, what choice did he have? According to the accepted narrative, Middle East peace is made impossible by a hard-line Likud-led Israel that refuses to accept a Palestinian state and continues to build settlements.

It is remarkable how this gross inversion of the truth has become conventional wisdom. In fact, Benjamin Netanyahu brought his Likud-led coalition to open recognition of a Palestinian state, thereby creating Israel's first national consensus for a two-state solution. He is also the only prime minister to agree to a settlement freeze - 10 months - something no Labor or Kadima government has ever done.

To which Abbas responded by boycotting the talks for nine months, showing up in the 10th, then walking out when the freeze expired. Last week he reiterated that he will continue to boycott peace talks unless Israel gives up - in advance - claim to any territory beyond the 1967 lines. Meaning, for example, that the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem is Palestinian territory. This is not just absurd. It violates every prior peace agreement. They all stipulate that such demands are to be the subject of negotiations, not their precondition.

Abbas unwaveringly insists on the so-called "right of return," which would demographically destroy Israel by swamping it with millions of Arabs, thereby turning the world's only Jewish state into the world's 23rd Arab state. And he has repeatedly declared, as recently as last week in New York: "We shall not recognize a Jewish state."

Nor is this new. It is perfectly consistent with the long history of Palestinian rejectionism. Consider:

-- Camp David, 2000. At a U.S.-sponsored summit, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offers Yasser Arafat a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza - and, astonishingly, the previously inconceivable division of Jerusalem. Arafat refuses. And makes no counteroffer, thereby demonstrating his unseriousness about making any deal. Instead, within two months, he launches a savage terror war that kills a thousand Israelis.

-- Taba, 2001. An even sweeter deal - the Clinton Parameters - is offered. Arafat walks away again.

-- Israel, 2008. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert makes the ultimate capitulation to Palestinian demands - 100 percent of the West Bank (with land swaps), Palestinian statehood, the division of Jerusalem with the Muslim parts becoming the capital of the new Palestine. And incredibly, he offers to turn over the city's holy places, including the Western Wall - Judaism's most sacred site, its Kaaba - to an international body on which sit Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

Did Abbas accept? Of course not. If he had, the conflict would be over and Palestine would already be a member of the United Nations.

This is not ancient history. All three peace talks occurred over the past decade. And every one completely contradicts the current mindless narrative of Israeli "intransigence" as the obstacle to peace.

Settlements? Every settlement remaining within the new Palestine would be destroyed and emptied, precisely as happened in Gaza.

So why did the Palestinians say no? Because saying yes would have required them to sign a final peace agreement that accepted a Jewish state on what they consider the Muslim patrimony.

The key word here is "final." The Palestinians are quite prepared to sign interim agreements, like Oslo. Framework agreements, like Annapolis. Cease-fires, like the 1949 armistice. Anything but a final deal. Anything but a final peace. Anything but a treaty that ends the conflict once and for all - while leaving a Jewish state still standing.

After all, why did Abbas go to the United Nations last week? For nearly half a century, the United States has pursued a Middle East settlement on the basis of the formula of land for peace. Land for peace produced the Israel-Egypt peace of 1979 and the Israel-Jordan peace of 1994. Israel has offered the Palestinians land for peace three times since. And been refused every time.
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Post by Cail »

Zar's got it, dead-on. Peace has been offered over and over, and every time the Israelis have given an inch, it's bitten them in the ass.
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That's why I said if enough people wanted it on all sides.

Thing is, Hashi is probably right...enough people on all sides are only willing to settle for a single state. So they'll fight until nobody is left.

Although most people want to be left alone to live, the people who don't are enough to make it impossible for everybody else.
Wosbald wrote:If "yes", then it seems that the Palestinians are legally-constituted citizens of another Nation-State, and thus, Israel would have either a diplomatic or a humanitarian crisis on its hands.

But if "no"; if the Palestinians are an "invented people" (thanx, Newt!), then it seems that they've no legally-constituted "their own" of which to speak, and thus, Israel would have a colonizer's "indigenous-peoples problem" on its hands.
Good question Wos.

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Post by Zarathustra »

Avatar wrote:Although most people want to be left alone to live, the people who don't are enough to make it impossible for everybody else.
Israel is more ethnically diverse than all its neighbors. While places like Egypt, Jordan, and Syria etc. are all 98%-99% Arab/Muslim, 20% of Israel's people are Arabs. They are the most inclusive, tolerant, and free country in all the Middle East. The problem is not Israel.

These are a people who were almost exterminated. They have only just recently recovered their numbers since the Holocaust. They are the only "Western-ish" country in the M.E., a culture that is actually contributing to humanity in terms of scientific research and medical technology. I don't understand why the civilized world can't see who are the good guys here, and who are the backward, repressive, aggressive assholes who want to destroy this one bright light in a region of darkness and ignorance.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Avatar wrote:Thing is, Hashi is probably right...enough people on all sides are only willing to settle for a single state. So they'll fight until nobody is left.
I should clarify that position a little. If the Palestinians decide that they want to fight it out, winner take all, then Israel will win--decisively--and they will control it all. There won't be enough Palestinians left to protest for a Palestinian State.

This is why the Palestinians are in such a bad position. They don't want a Two State solution, as Z's linked story concludes, and yet they cannot afford to go all in on armed conflict, either, because they know they will lose. There is no clean, easy solution to the problem of living in a house with a roommate who wants you out of the house permanently.
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Post by Cail »

Zarathustra wrote:
Avatar wrote:Although most people want to be left alone to live, the people who don't are enough to make it impossible for everybody else.
Israel is more ethnically diverse than all its neighbors. While places like Egypt, Jordan, and Syria etc. are all 98%-99% Arab/Muslim, 20% of Israel's people are Arabs. They are the most inclusive, tolerant, and free country in all the Middle East. The problem is not Israel.

These are a people who were almost exterminated. They have only just recently recovered their numbers since the Holocaust. They are the only "Western-ish" country in the M.E., a culture that is actually contributing to humanity in terms of scientific research and medical technology. I don't understand why the civilized world can't see who are the good guys here, and who are the backward, repressive, aggressive assholes who want to destroy this one bright light in a region of darkness and ignorance.
Because the rest of the world is shockingly anti-Semitic.
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+JMJ+

Trump plan to move U.S. embassy to Jerusalem angers Middle East Christians
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Christians in Amman, Jordan, protest President Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital on Dec. 13, 2017. (Muhammad Hamed/Reuters)


Some of the festive cheer was missing this weekend at a public Christmas tree lighting near the site where Christians believe an angel proclaimed Christ's birth to local shepherds.

"Our oppressors have decided to deprive us from the joy of Christmas," Patriarch Michel Sabbah, the former archbishop and Latin patriarch of Jerusalem, told the crowd in the town of Beit Sahour in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. "Mr. Trump told us clearly Jerusalem is not yours."

The Trump administration's decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital and move the U.S. Embassy there has provoked widespread opposition among Christians across the Middle East. When Vice President Pence arrives next week on a trip touted as a chance to check on the region's persecuted Christians, he will be facing an awkward backlash.

The pope of the Egyptian Coptic Church, who leads the largest Christian denomination in the Middle East, has called off a scheduled meeting with Pence in Cairo. The Chaldean Church in Iraq warned this week that the White House move on Jerusalem risks sparking regional violence and extremism and demanded that the Trump administration respect U.N. resolutions on the city.

In the West Bank city of Bethlehem, which is about 12 percent Christian and is a scheduled stop on Pence's tour, religious leaders turned off the city's Christmas tree lights last week to protest the White House announcement.

In the city, the writing is on the wall: "Mr PENCE you are not welcome," someone has scrawled in red spray paint on the 26-foot-high concrete Israeli security barrier that separates Bethlehem from Jerusalem.

On Sunday, demonstrators staged a sit-in outside the Church of the Nativity, built on the site thought to be the birthplace of Jesus. "We will not receive Mr. Pence here," said Saleh Bandak, a Bethlehem-born Christian politician who attended Sunday's protest.

[…]

Pence has been a longtime proponent of the embassy move and hinted at Trump's decision in a speech the week before the announcement. In a video message to Republicans in Israel in October, Pence described Jerusalem as "the eternal, undivided capital of the Jewish people."

[…]


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Post by Avatar »

Well, that was unexpected. :D
Zarathustra wrote:They are the most inclusive, tolerant, and free country in all the Middle East.
And still rated as one of the most unequal "developed" economies in the world.
...I don't understand why the civilized world can't see who are the good guys here, and who are the backward, repressive, aggressive assholes who want to destroy this one bright light in a region of darkness and ignorance.
If we don't hold good guys to higher standards than bad guys, then is there a point or a difference?

If all we can do is justify any atrocities we commit by pointing to the atrocities that others have committed (even against us), then what gives us the right to decry those past ones?

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White House signals Western Wall has to be part of Israel
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In this Dec. 6, 2017, photo, Vice President Mike Pence listens as President Donald Trump speaks in the Diplomatic Reception Room of the White House, Wednesday, Dec. 6, 2017, in Washington. Senior Trump administration officials outlined their view on Dec. 15, that Jerusalem's Western Wall ultimately will be declared a part of Israel, in another declaration sure to enflame passions among Palestinians and others in the Middle East. Although they said the ultimate borders of the holy city must be resolved through Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, the officials, speaking ahead of Pence's trip to the region, essentially ruled out any scenario that didn't maintain Israeli control over the holiest ground in Judaism. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)


WASHINGTON — Senior Trump administration officials outlined their view Friday that Jerusalem's Western Wall ultimately will be declared a part of Israel, in another declaration sure to enflame passions among Palestinians and others in the Middle East.

Although they said the ultimate borders of the holy city must be resolved through Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, the officials - speaking ahead of Vice President Mike Pence's trip to the region - essentially ruled out any scenario that didn't maintain Israeli control over the holiest ground in Judaism. The issue is sensitive because the wall is beyond Israel's pre-1967 borders and abuts some of the Islamic world's most revered sites.

"We cannot envision any situation under which the Western Wall would not be part of Israel. But as the president said, the specific boundaries of sovereignty of Israel are going to be part of the final status agreement," a senior administration official said. Another official later added by email, "We note that we cannot imagine Israel would sign a peace agreement that didn't include the Western Wall."

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss details of the vice president's upcoming trip.

Nabil Abu Rdeneh, a senior adviser to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, reacted indignantly to the comments.

"We will not accept any changes on the borders of east Jerusalem, which was occupied in 1967," Abu Rdeneh told The Associated Press. "This statement proves once again that this American administration is outside the peace process. The continuation of this American policy, whether the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, or moving the American embassy, or such statements, by which the United States decides unilaterally on the issues of the final status negotiations, are a violation of international law and strengthen the Israeli occupation. For us, this is unacceptable. We totally reject it. And we totally denounce it."

Pence plans to visit the Western Wall next week. The administration officials said he would be accompanied by a rabbi to preserve the spiritual nature of his planned visit to the hallowed wall in Jerusalem's Old City. The officials said Pence's Wednesday visit would be conducted in a similar manner to when President Donald Trump visited in May.

[…]


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Pence requests press conference at Western Wall, denied by Rabbi
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US Vice President Mike Pence requested to hold a press conference at the Western Wall immediately upon his landing in Israel but was refused by the Rabbi responsible for the site, Channel 10 news reports.

Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovitch, who is the current Rabbi of the Western Wall and the holy sites, has been serving in that role since 2000.

He cited his concern that such an event, if approved, would lead to violent escalations in Jerusalem between Arabs and Jews.


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Pence press conference can go ahead on upper Western Wall plaza
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Source in coordinating team denies report that Kotel Rabbi barred VP from talking to the press at sacred site.

If US Vice President Mike Pence chooses to give a press conference during his visit to the Western Wall when he visits the holy site next month, he is free to do so in the upper plaza, sources who participated in the talks ahead of the visit told the Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

The source denied earlier reports that the administrator of the Western Wall Rabbi Shmuel Rabinowitz had completely barred Pence from conducting a press conference at the Western Wall during his upcoming visit to the country.

According to the source, Pence would be able to hold the event in the upper plaza, but not the lower one, which is considered sacred.

According to a report on Channel 10, the US diplomatic team planning and coordinating the visit asked if Pence would be able to conduct a press conference for the press corp traveling with him from the US. Rabinowitz however deemed the request to be inappropriate, Channel 10 quoted the American diplomatic officials as saying, stating that the Western Wall is a holy place and not suitable for political or media events. The rabbi also reportedly argued that coming against the background of US President Donald Trump's historic declaration of US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, Pence holding a press conference at the site and potentially making sensitive political comments about Jerusalem could reignite tensions and riots in the capital and even on the Temple Mount.

Pence's visit has been postponed for unrelated reasons and is now scheduled to take place in the middle of January.

[…]


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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Meh. As noted, anyone who gets upset over these purely political decisions--recognizing a capitol city, moving an embassy, etc--is the problem.

The Palestinians should count themselves lucky that Israel hasn't moved to capture the entire city by military force.
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Hashi Lebwohl wrote:Meh. As noted, anyone who gets upset over these purely political decisions--recognizing a capitol city, moving an embassy, etc--is the problem.

The Palestinians should count themselves lucky that Israel hasn't moved to capture the entire city by military force.
This reminds me somewhat of Netanyahu's recent remark that "recognizing reality is the substance of peace", whereas I would think it might be more helpful in this situation to say that the substance of peace is being peaceable.

Netanyahu in Brussels: "It's time that the Palestinians recognize the Jewish state"
"I think what President Trump has done is put facts squarely on the table. Peace is based on reality. Peace is based on recognizing reality and I think the fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital is clearly evident."

"Jerusalem is Israel's capital. No one can deny it," Netanyahu told reporters during his joint press conference with Mogherini. "It doesn't obviate peace, it makes peace possible because recognizing reality is the substance of peace, it's the foundation of peace."
-------------------------------------------

Vatican says Trump is adding 'fuel to the fire' in Middle East
Christopher Lamb meets Archbishop Tomasi:

1. What is your response to the decision by the United States to transfer their embassy to Jerusalem and recognise it as the capital of Israel?

The International community sees Jerusalem as both a religious and a political center that transcends its role for only one State. The United Nations Organization has repeatedly and in different ways stated the uniqueness of Jerusalem. The unilateral decision taken by the present Administration of the United States deviates from the accepted position of the International community and becomes a source of tensions in a region where conflicts already abound. …

[…]

2. What is the Holy See's approach to the Middle East and how peace can be achieved in the region?

The long standing position of the Holy See is that of having in the Holy Land two States, independent, respectful of each other, with well defined borders and open to cooperation. In fact, the Holy See acts in the international context on the base of some fundamental juridical and humanitarian principles shared by all States and also it reflects its specific and unique nature and the policies it promotes. The social doctrine of the Church, expressed in encyclicals like Laudato Si' of Pope Francis or Populorum Progressio of Paul VI or Laborem Exercens of St. John Paul II, as well as in other documents and declarations, provides guidelines for action in the public arena. The pursuit of the common good, a sense of empathy and compassion, concrete solidarity, inclusiveness an dialogue, these are all values the Holy See promotes and that imbedded in its service. Without a practical acceptance of such values I don't see how peace may be reached in the Middle East. …

[…]

3. Do you still have faith in the "two state solution"?

There seems to be no other acceptable alternative to the two States solution. As I mentioned before, the decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem assumes a practical and symbolic meaning that runs against the United Nations decisions and adds fuel to the fire of existing conflicts. …

[…]


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Vatican envoy: Unilateral moves on Jerusalem threaten peace
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Archbishop Pierbattista Pizzaballa (Credit: Wikimedia Commons)


JERUSALEM — The top Roman Catholic cleric in the Holy Land says the status of Jerusalem should not be altered by "unilateral decisions," amid protests over the U.S. recognition of the contested city as Israel's capital.

Archbishop Pierbattista Pizzaballa [yes, folks, that's his real name ;) ] said in a statement Wednesday that "unilateral decisions will not bring peace, but rather will distance it. Jerusalem is a treasure of all humanity. Any exclusive claim - be it political or religious - is contrary to the city's own logic."

[…]


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Wosbald wrote: This reminds me somewhat of Netanyahu's recent remark that "recognizing reality is the substance of peace", whereas I would think it might be more helpful in this situation to say that the substance of peace is being peaceable.
Have they ever tried saying "Hey, we'll recognise you if you recognise us?"

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Avatar wrote:
Wosbald wrote: This reminds me somewhat of Netanyahu's recent remark that "recognizing reality is the substance of peace", whereas I would think it might be more helpful in this situation to say that the substance of peace is being peaceable.
Have they ever tried saying "Hey, we'll recognise you if you recognise us?"

--A
I'm certainly no expert in this area, however it just may well be worth hazarding the bizarrely alien majicks of Wiki.

International recognition of the State of Palestine #Israeli position
Between the end of the Six-Day War and the Oslo Accords, no Israeli government proposed a Palestinian state. Even after the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority in 1994, most Israeli mainstream politicians were opposed to the idea. During Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government of 1996-1999, he went as far as to accuse the two previous governments of Rabin and Peres of bringing closer to realisation what he claimed to be the "danger" of a Palestinian state, and stated that his main policy goal was to ensure that the Palestinian Authority didn't evolve beyond an autonomy.

In November 2001, Ariel Sharon was the first Israeli Prime Minister to proclaim that a Palestinian state was the solution to the conflict and the goal of his administration. The government headed by Ehud Olmert repeated the same objective. Following the inauguration of the present Netanyahu government in 2009, the government again claimed that a Palestinian state posed a danger for Israel.[26] The government position changed, however, following pressure from the Obama administration, and on 14 June 2009, Netanyahu for the first time made a speech in which he supported the notion of a demilitarized and territorially reduced Palestinian state.[27] This position met some criticism for its lack of commitment on the territories to be ceded to the Palestinian state in the future.

The Israeli government has accepted in general the idea that a Palestinian state is to be established, but has refused to accept the 1967 borders either as compulsory or as a basis for final border negotiations, due to security concerns. Israeli military experts have argued that the 1967 borders are strategically indefensible.[28] It also opposes the Palestinian plan of approaching the UN General Assembly on the matter of statehood, as it claims it does not honor the Oslo Accords agreement in which both sides agreed not to pursue unilateral moves.[29]


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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Unfortunately, the Palestinians need to face two cold, hard facts:

1) their fellow Arab nations threw them under the bus

2) they lost

Had 1967 gone the other way, does anyone think the Palestinians would have hesitated to push the remaining Israelis into the Mediterranean?
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