Do intentions matter more than acts?

[Avatar]

As atheist as I am, I can't deny that a lot of good is motivated by, or done in the name of, religion as well.

It's never as simple and clear cut as we would like it to be.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

Yup. That's true of every aspect of humanity. Some use it for good, some for evil. It doesn't matter what the thing in question is; it matters what the specific person's goals are.

[Vraith]

As atheist as I am, I can't deny that a lot of good is motivated by, or done in the name of, religion as well.

--A

that would make sense if there were any evidence the faithful act more morally and more effectively/widely than the atheists.
but, alas, the evidence is otherwise.

One of the funniest things I ever saw was a large U.S. study...
Christians did, indeed, give more to charity and watch less porn.....
[[[wait for it.....]]]




ON SUNDAYS.

during the other six days they gave less, and porn-icated MORE, to end up behind the non-believers.

Graham ended up rich as fuck, AND raised a total fuckhead of a son that he left in charge of his multinational conglomerate...I mean "church."
A large portion of his followers think Adam and Eve were real people, born about 6000 years ago.
He DOES have a large need for forgiveness...from real people, for causing massive harm to the real world.
[[BTW, Mother Theresa, was a shitty person too in many ways]].

[Avatar]

that would make sense if there were any evidence the faithful act more morally and more effectively/widely than the atheists.
but, alas, the evidence is otherwise.

Not talking about averages. I mean individuals who start non-profits to help the needy, or open free day care for the children of the poor, or organise feeding schemes or any of that other stuff because they believe their god expects them to help those who suffer.

The hungry child doesn't care if god told you to give them food or not. The outcome is a net "good" regardless of the motivation.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

As atheist as I am, I can't deny that a lot of good is motivated by, or done in the name of, religion as well.

--A

that would make sense if there were any evidence the faithful act more morally and more effectively/widely than the atheists.
but, alas, the evidence is otherwise.

I was thinking along the lines of Bach.

[Zarathustra]

mean individuals who start non-profits to help the needy, or open free day care for the children of the poor, or organise feeding schemes or any of that other stuff because they believe their god expects them to help those who suffer.

The hungry child doesn't care if god told you to give them food or not. The outcome is a net "good" regardless of the motivation.

--A

The profit motive has fed millions more children than any non-profit ever has. If we're going to measure goodness in terms of how many people are fed, the undeniable champion in the history of the world is capitalism.

Non-profits are just a way to avoid paying taxes ... which is ironic, since paying taxes is supposed to be the height of one's civic responsibility. Everyone at every non-profit makes money. They all take their cut. Just like Billy Graham and every other preacher who skims money off of the top from the generosity of those whom they berate and guilt-trip with their preaching.

But we act like the capitalists and those making a profit are the bad actors. People are more concerned with the veneer of "goodness" than actual results ... the illusion of good intentions.

[Cail]

Graham ended up rich as fuck

A net worth of $25 million and an annual salary/housing allowance of $150,000 isn't quite, "rich as fuck".

One can legitimately criticize Graham for many things, however he was a remarkably modest and frugal man, given the amount of power he had.

[Vraith]

Graham ended up rich as fuck

A net worth of $25 million and an annual salary/housing allowance of $150,000 isn't quite, "rich as fuck".

One can legitimately criticize Graham for many things, however he was a remarkably modest and frugal man, given the amount of power he had.

Well, not Gates/Bezos/Zuckerberg wealth. But 25M puts him better than 99.5, but not quite 99.9.

I'd give him much more of a break if it weren't for the authority he gave his kid. Franklin's a nasty bastard.

[Fist and Faith]

mean individuals who start non-profits to help the needy, or open free day care for the children of the poor, or organise feeding schemes or any of that other stuff because they believe their god expects them to help those who suffer.

The hungry child doesn't care if god told you to give them food or not. The outcome is a net "good" regardless of the motivation.

--A

The profit motive has fed millions more children than any non-profit ever has. If we're going to measure goodness in terms of how many people are fed, the undeniable champion in the history of the world is capitalism.

We're not going to measure goodness in those terms. We're going to measure success in those terms. Not being as successful does not make those Av is talking about less good, or what they did less good. Good has been done, and it has been done because someone thought God wanted it done.

Which I should have also said to V in my previous post. A lot of good has been motivated by, or done in the name of, religion, regardless of the fact that some of the things done could have been done more effectively, or that some of the faithful do not act more morally. (Bach is still a good answer, though.)

[SoulBiter]

I have to say I am surprised at the amount of vitriol toward Christianity and Christians. You take the actions of the extreme and apply it to everyone. How unfair is that?

I don't know what Christians you meet in your life but let me tell you about those that I know. They are hippocrits. They drink beer. They yell at others in traffic. They get divorced. They cuss and use bad language at times. Basically they are human. They are just like everyone else and they don't claim to have any less faults than anyone else and indeed more than some others.

But.... there is the other side.

They also take those less fortunate into their homes while they get back on their feet. They give away their spare car to someone they don't even know, that lost everything trying to escape from a spouse that was abusing them. They show up to the local schools and post office when no one is there and clean up the trash around the facilities, clear out the weeds and mow. They cook and bring families that wouldn't be able to enjoy a Thanksgiving or Christmas meal, the full holiday fare. They put money in an envelope and drop it off at someones house (or have someone else do so for them so that its anonymous) when they find out that the family lost a job, or their son cant make it to a athletic meet because the family had to make a choice between food and athletics. They band together and show up at an elderly couples home and rebuild a broken down porch, paint their homes, tear out rotten wood and fix the house so that its livable. I know a guy who owns a Heating and Air company that gives away his personal time to fix or replace peoples systems because they cant afford to get theirs fixed. They foster children which is a double edged sword. You take in kids and make them part of your family, and find that you love them, only to have to turn them back over to their true family, and then take in another kid or kids. They adopt children from the US, China, Uganda. They buy truckloads of water and food and show up at a massive traffic jam caused by people leaving Florida to escape a hurricane and give that away. They take an ice cream truck into areas and give away ice cream, no charge. They do many good things. Many Charitable things.

Evil, No. Human, Yes!

[Zarathustra]

I'm not an atheist by accident. It was a conscious decision to reject my Christian upbringing. I think it's a toxic, life-denying, anti-human belief system. Like all religion. And it bugs me that most religious people think they have a monopoly on being good, and that you must convert to their religion or face the most dire consequences a human can face: damnation. To this day my mother is still trying to convert me back to Christianity. I'm 46 years old and she can't just let me have my own beliefs.

I know that most Christians think they are acting out of love, but love doesn't judge. Love accepts. Religion is judgment, not love. No god who actually loved his creations would damn them for having the wrong beliefs.

I think religion robs us of our humanity. That's why I call it evil. It also makes us believe things that--if most of society didn't accept it as fact--would be seen as obviously ludicrous. We can see it in other people's religions, the mythological aspects that are clearly the childlike superstitions of ancient, ignorant people. But in our own relgions, we accept things like the Garden of Eden, Noah's flood, and crucifiction/resurrection as if there is nothing crazy about those ideas at all. Religion somehow negates people's natural incredulity for things that are just plain silly. There is no way Noah's flood could have happened. It's physically impossible, and we can prove it! But otherwise educated people insist upon believing this fairy tale even in the 21st century.

Something that perpetuates ignorance and lack of critical thinking on such a massive scale cannot be good.

[Fist and Faith]

I'm not an atheist by accident. It was a conscious decision to reject my Christian upbringing.

I simply realized I didn't believe what I had been taught for several years in Sunday School and church. When I was ten-ish years old, I heard someone on TV say the only reason people believe in God is because they're afraid of going to Hell good not believing if they're wrong. That was the first time I was exposed to the idea that there are people who don't believe; that what I simply accepted as fact was belief. And I immediately knew I did not believe it. I could recite the words, but I felt nothing. And that was the end of it for me.

Something that perpetuates ignorance and lack of critical thinking on such a massive scale cannot be good.

It can't be good for critical thinking. But it can be good for other things. It would seem many people need it. They cannot live without it. Some nearly died, then thrived after finding out. Different people have different psychological strengths and weaknesses, hopes and fears, needs and desires. Not everyone can manage in this life the way you and I do. Those that cannot think critically can still have life and love. There will always be people thinking critically, unraveling the mysteries of the universe. (Some of them are even firm believers.)

[Vraith]

It can't be good for critical thinking. But it can be good for other things.

No, it literally can't unlesss:
People are Born Bad. [[they aren't]]
AND:
Religion is an effective way of making them "not bad." [[it isn't..we KNOW this. It only makes them bad as a group in different ways/situations while self-cuddling about the good they've done.]]
Religion ONLY did/does good things IF and WHEN people are/were ALREADY GOOD [[at least had a care/tendency that way]] OR afraid.
And making people afraid absolutely guarantees you will end up with a religion/priesthood that is devoted to oppressing/tyrannizing BOTH the congregants and outsiders.

[Fist and Faith]

You're wrong. Some people cannot be happy, and some can't even function, without the kinds of answers various religions offer. Just because some people can doesn't mean all people can. Some cannot find the strength to do this or that, even though others can. They live better lives with faith. I personally know several people who turned to God and were then able to get off drugs. Are you going to tell me that is not a good outcome? Is the person better off as an addict? Is society better off with the addict?

[Vraith]

You're wrong. Some people cannot be happy, and some can't even function, without the kinds of answers various religions offer. Just because some people can doesn't mean all people can. Some cannot find the strength to do this or that, even though others can. They live better lives with faith. I personally know several people who turned to God and were then able to get off drugs. Are you going to tell me that is not a good outcome? Is the person better off as an addict? Is society better off with the addict?

You're still missing the point. But, whatever.
Faith-based programs don't fucking work mostly, and when they DO, it ain't because of faith...it's luck, timing, or faith in faith--which is weird, but actually has evidence. It doesn't matter WHAT particularly you believe, as long as you believe it.
TONS of things can be inspiration/validation/support.
I love good fiction. It makes me feel good. It inspires me. It encourages me. It has a certain kind of value.
But I ain't gonna start worshiping some fucker with a white gold ring, being jealous of people cuz a particular horse likes them, or rage about servants of the despiser.
Go ahead, be religIOUS. But obey the strict/literal rules of any particular god/religion, you are fucked one way or another. [[a FEW exceptions, where they care about your attitude/place/stance, not obedience.]]

[Fist and Faith]

You're still missing the point. But, whatever.

I'm not. You are. You think that religion can only be a good thing under the conditions you insist on. But you don't have the authority to set the limits on how things can be good. Religion can be good in other ways. Av gave good examples. Even if someone without faith finds a way to feed more people than someone with faith does, it doesn't mean the person who was motivated by faith did not do good. If a whirlwind of shit came your way, you lost your job, etc etc, and couldn't feed your kids, you sure wouldn't be thinking the local church that feeds them wasn't doing a good thing. They think God wants them to, and they don't have the economic sense to do it better than they do. And you might literally cry from gratitude.

Faith-based programs don't fucking work mostly, and when they DO, it ain't because of faith...it's luck, timing, or faith in faith--which is weird, but actually has evidence. It doesn't matter WHAT particularly you believe, as long as you believe it.
TONS of things can be inspiration/validation/support.

Yes, for different people, different things can work. But it's not like anything can be substituted for anything else in all people. If that was the case, you or I could get inspiration/validation/support from belief in God. It doesn't matter WHAT we particularly believe, so we can just choose to believe in God, right? Of course not. Because, for each person, certain things can work, and certain things can't. Some people NEED that ultimate authority figure to tell them which path to take. It takes them three hours to pick out which shirt to wear, so how can they make a decision on how to life their lives? Some people DO feel guilty for pretty much everything, and need to be forgiven by someone or something that they think has the authority to forgive.

Everybody isn't like you. Not everybody can accept the answers you can accept.

[Cail]

Graham ended up rich as fuck

A net worth of $25 million and an annual salary/housing allowance of $150,000 isn't quite, "rich as fuck".

One can legitimately criticize Graham for many things, however he was a remarkably modest and frugal man, given the amount of power he had.

Well, not Gates/Bezos/Zuckerberg wealth. But 25M puts him better than 99.5, but not quite 99.9.

I'd give him much more of a break if it weren't for the authority he gave his kid. Franklin's a nasty bastard.

He led a very simple, frugal life. He's not someone who's had a bit of impact in my life, but I do credit the man for walking the walk.

And it seems a bit.....petty to hate him for doing what everyone does - passing the business to his child. Franklin may well be a nasty bastard (don't know, don't care), but pretty much any parent's going to do what Billy did.

[Rawedge Rim]

You're wrong. Some people cannot be happy, and some can't even function, without the kinds of answers various religions offer. Just because some people can doesn't mean all people can. Some cannot find the strength to do this or that, even though others can. They live better lives with faith. I personally know several people who turned to God and were then able to get off drugs. Are you going to tell me that is not a good outcome? Is the person better off as an addict? Is society better off with the addict?

You're still missing the point. But, whatever.
Faith-based programs don't fucking work mostly, and when they DO, it ain't because of faith...it's luck, timing, or faith in faith--which is weird, but actually has evidence. It doesn't matter WHAT particularly you believe, as long as you believe it.
TONS of things can be inspiration/validation/support.
I love good fiction. It makes me feel good. It inspires me. It encourages me. It has a certain kind of value.
But I ain't gonna start worshiping some fucker with a white gold ring, being jealous of people cuz a particular horse likes them, or rage about servants of the despiser.
Go ahead, be religIOUS. But obey the strict/literal rules of any particular god/religion, you are fucked one way or another. [[a FEW exceptions, where they care about your attitude/place/stance, not obedience.]]

Sounds to me, from your post, that short of a deity personally appearing and immediately performing miracles, you are hardwired into disbelieving in the efficaciousness of faith based organizations. Sorta damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Avatar]

For me, I'm not even talking about organisations. I'm just talking about people. Individual acts which make a difference to somebody. If you do good, I don't really care if you're motivated by secular humanism or religion. The important thing is that good is being done.

(And yes, many terrible things have been motivated by religion as well. But that's not the point.)

--A

[Skyweir]

Well said

So very true