Beware the decline of Christianity

[Cail]

The simple difference is that Christians, for one reason or another, decided to stop killing people who don't agree with their dogma.

You don't think it's because they happen to find themselves in societies that reject God and Biblical revelation as the ultimate truth? A change came about because of scientific + social revolution? It can't be a coincidence.

Society and human knowledge has been moving forward, pushing the change, while (like the Pope finally apologizing about Galileo centuries later) Christianity has just been playing catch up, dragged along unwillingly and forced to make changes in order just to stay relevant.

I don't know. All I do know is that Christians don't tend to kill people, nor do they tend to have theocracies. Islam is still mired in the 10th century.

[Skyweir]

I think so Z

Christians are not one homogeneous group of identical thinking humans with mirrored principles.

Fundamentalist Christians are JUST as dangerous as fundamentalist anything. Case in point the Christian Crusaders on trial for terrorism.

Maybe its a human thing .. Humans are prone to anger, violence, jealousy.. vengeance, they are not great adapters to change and can become rabid in their treatment of others who do not share their world view.

I recall once in church suggesting that if god created this world for his children .. as a learning experience, to experience mortality and learn to master their flesh .. surely it is to assist them ALL in the quest for immortality... challenging the notion of hell, limbo etc.

The rabid opposition to that .. proposition .. I am one to think and process my thinking vocally .. was rabidly fierce .. if it were the Middle Ages I would have no doubt that would have been an offence they would have gladly crucified me or had me burned st the stake.

Just the thought that they might share an eternal reward with humans that had not sacrificed their Sundays, undertaken acts of serviced .. umm charity .. as they had was intolerable to them.

Humans are pretty fucked up imo. Christians are not ALL THAT humans are not ALL THAT .. we will probably instigate our own extinction because of our flaws, our inability to embrace change, our intolerance for difference .. meh

Not all are equal in their goodness or lack there of, in integrity or lack thereof ...

[Avatar]

The difference between Islam and Christianity is that the Muslim world never went through its own Enlightenment....

This isn't a contest between two religions, or even two cultures that have two different religions. This is a contest between a medieval worldview and the Enlightened West.

Comparing religions misses the point. Christianity is mostly harmless (from a political standpoint, not a personal one) because it has been reduced to a contradiction: a religion that is too embarrassed to follow its own Holy Book. Christianity has been shamed, cowed. Islam, on the other hand, is still dominated by people who take it seriously enough to wage a religious war.

Agreed, and well said.

--A

[SoulBiter]

I agree with all except this

Christianity has been shamed, cowed

Come on down here to the Bible belt and see how cowed Christianity is. There is a Church on every corner and a bible in every hand. You will see people standing on corners reading the Bible out loud, a team with a bullhorn at every Falcons Home game at the entry reading from Revelation. I don't think you will find it cowed at all. Matter of fact people down here are tired of having their religion be pushed behind closed doors and we are seeing a resurgence of Church plants (New Churches planted from existing Churches).

What most see as a decline in Christianity is a revolution of sorts that is pushing people away from fundamentalist teaching to a more Christ centered teaching. Because of that Churches are breaking the trend and growing, and reaching out to other areas.

[Zarathustra]

SB, so you are proud of the OT Bible verses that say it's ok to own slaves and stone homosexuals? Those aren't a source of embarrassment? Why doesn't your church follow these Biblical teachings anymore if it hasn't been shamed into modernizing itself?

That's what I mean about being cowed: Christians no longer follow their own holy book. If they did, they'd be as bad as Muslims.

I know that Christians justify this by saying that Jesus represents a "new covenant" and that the OT doesn't have to be followed anymore, but that's just a cop-out. At one time the Christian god told his people they can own other humans as property. That's bad enough on its own, that your god thinks so little of human beings that they can be property. But Jesus has nothing to do with correcting that. There was never any explicit rescinding of that principle in the NT. If there had been, "good" Christians wouldn't have been owning slaves in every Christian country for about 1800 years after Jesus. The NT isn't what changed. Society did. And Christianity now pretends it was their idea to give up slavery all along, because of the New Testament.

That's bullshit.

[SoulBiter]

Feel free to believe what you want about Christians Z. I don't have to justify my belief to you or anyone else. Its just your opinion. For most things you are very balanced in opinion. But for Religion, especially Christianity, you have shown yourself to be extremely motivated to stamp it out. That's fine. I've been here long enough to know your story on Religion and Atheism so I get why you are so adamant in your opposition to Religion. I even remember a thread where you were really ticked off at someone saying they would pray for you. So, I will pray for you.

[Rawedge Rim]

SB, so you are proud of the OT Bible verses that say it's ok to own slaves and stone homosexuals? Those aren't a source of embarrassment? Why doesn't your church follow these Biblical teachings anymore if it hasn't been shamed into modernizing itself?

That's what I mean about being cowed: Christians no longer follow their own holy book. If they did, they'd be as bad as Muslims.

I know that Christians justify this by saying that Jesus represents a "new covenant" and that the OT doesn't have to be followed anymore, but that's just a cop-out. At one time the Christian god told his people they can own other humans as property. That's bad enough on its own, that your god thinks so little of human beings that they can be property. But Jesus has nothing to do with correcting that. There was never any explicit rescinding of that principle in the NT. If there had been, "good" Christians wouldn't have been owning slaves in every Christian country for about 1800 years after Jesus. The NT isn't what changed. Society did. And Christianity now pretends it was their idea to give up slavery all along, because of the New Testament.

That's bullshit.

A little Anti-Christian/religion are you?

Why yes God did sanction slavery in the OT, though there were strict rules on how those slaves were to be treated.

Mosiac Law did proscribe a number of penalties for various offenses, including stoning for adultry, blasphamy.

Now lets go to the NT: such as the passage of Jesus and the Adulteress Woman. We see here that instead of agreeing with the Pharisee's that she should be stoned as per Mosiac Law, he forgave her and bid her to "go and sin no more".

[Zarathustra]

A little Anti-Christian/religion are you?

Why yes God did sanction slavery in the OT, though there were strict rules on how those slaves were to be treated.

Mosiac Law did proscribe a number of penalties for various offenses, including stoning for adultry, blasphamy.

Now lets go to the NT: such as the passage of Jesus and the Adulteress Woman. We see here that instead of agreeing with the Pharisee's that she should be stoned as per Mosiac Law, he forgave her and bid her to "go and sin no more".

RR, If your belief system compels you to find silver linings in things that are unambiguously evil, like slavery, that should be a big red flag that something is wrong with your beliefs. It doesn't matter how nice you treat your slaves, you are evil if you treat people as property or in any way condone it.

Of course I'm anti-religion. I've declared it with every single post I've made. That's what my signature means. We're on a fansite for an author who is anti-religion! It shouldn't be all that surprising. I 'm surprised Donaldson has Christian fans.

SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me. I think it's a little condescending, but otherwise harmless. I think people sometimes use it as a passive-aggressive insult, like, 'you're such a shitty person you need someone to pray for you.' But if if makes you feel better to pretend that talking to yourself can accomplish something, it can't hurt me. I think the idea of prayer is a little nuts. Under any other circumstances if someone claimed they were talking to someone in their head, they'd be locked up. But that's what religion does, it legitimizes things that we'd ordinarily recognize as insane and/or ludicrous under normal conditions. It mainstreams crazy stuff so that its practitioners don't even think it's weird. And this goes for literally ANYTHING, even handling deadly snakes or believing that bread can turn into the flesh of Jesus.

Or make excuses for slavery.

[SoulBiter]

SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me.

Hmm I tried to go into the search engine and find the thread I was talking about but its just too much data for me to parse quickly. My apologies to you if I'm wrong. Heck maybe it was another site and another person entirely. At some point all the sites I have debated on tend to run together.

[Cail]

SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me.

Hmm I tried to go into the search engine and find the thread I was talking about but its just too much data for me to parse quickly. My apologies to you if I'm wrong. Heck maybe it was another site and another person entirely. At some point all the sites I have debated on tend to run together.

I remember that. Can't remember who said it, might have been 'Weez, could have been me. You really went off the deep end over it.

[Rawedge Rim]

A little Anti-Christian/religion are you?

Why yes God did sanction slavery in the OT, though there were strict rules on how those slaves were to be treated.

Mosiac Law did proscribe a number of penalties for various offenses, including stoning for adultry, blasphamy.

Now lets go to the NT: such as the passage of Jesus and the Adulteress Woman. We see here that instead of agreeing with the Pharisee's that she should be stoned as per Mosiac Law, he forgave her and bid her to "go and sin no more".

RR, If your belief system compels you to find silver linings in things that are unambiguously evil, like slavery, that should be a big red flag that something is wrong with your beliefs. It doesn't matter how nice you treat your slaves, you are evil if you treat people as property or in any way condone it.

Of course I'm anti-religion. I've declared it with every single post I've made. That's what my signature means. We're on a fansite for an author who is anti-religion! It shouldn't be all that surprising. I 'm surprised Donaldson has Christian fans.

SB, I don't remember being pissed at someone praying for me. I think it's a little condescending, but otherwise harmless. I think people sometimes use it as a passive-aggressive insult, like, 'you're such a shitty person you need someone to pray for you.' But if if makes you feel better to pretend that talking to yourself can accomplish something, it can't hurt me. I think the idea of prayer is a little nuts. Under any other circumstances if someone claimed they were talking to someone in their head, they'd be locked up. But that's what religion does, it legitimizes things that we'd ordinarily recognize as insane and/or ludicrous under normal conditions. It mainstreams crazy stuff so that its practitioners don't even think it's weird. And this goes for literally ANYTHING, even handling deadly snakes or believing that bread can turn into the flesh of Jesus.

Or make excuses for slavery.

I don't remember any religion, or philosophy up until a couple of centuries ago that had any problem with Slavery, wife beating, child abuse, war: as we define such things today

The slavery you are thinking of is what you've see with africans as the slaves being severly abuse during colonial times and up until slavery as an institution in the west was abolished.

The slavery mentioned in the Bible was much more like what the Romans practiced, where a slave was allowed wages and could actually purchase their freedom.

Regardless, EVIL, as you define it, is defined by culture. Killing your enemies and eating thier heart was not considered an act of evil by various tribesmen. Or for that matter, killing the injured after a battle because they don't have the medical skill to help and don't believe in taking prisoners was not considered evil, it was considered an act of mercy.

[Fist and Faith]

What I suspect Z is getting at is that it is insufficient for God to have become more tolerant and less vicious. God should not have become better; turned over a new leaf. This is rather convincing evidence that the God of this specific belief system does not exist. The reason any religion that has a problem with slavery, wife beating, etc, but did not have a problem with it at any time in the past, is not because the divine being at the head of that religion changed its mind. It is because the followers of that religion became better people over the generations.

[Skyweir]

Exactly FF well said

Surprising that a god that is accredited to be .. unchangeable .. and of course all knowing, all powerful, indeed a perfect being .. would have had the need to change at all. The bible is full of women treated as possessions that a father could give to a raging mob to defile through rape, women who experience loss were deemed procreative value to surviving siblings, a god that is credited with entering into a wager with the devil which led to the conducting of a social experiment to see how much suffering one human could bear... not such a great guy or gal ..

The god of the Old Testament reigned over an arguably brutal regime. Where his followers were commanded to slaughter men, women and children and any of their domesticated animals for good measure. The New Testament is lauded as embracing a new covenant that replaced the mosaic law .. yet much bias from the Old Testament is still used today .. to justify hate crimes as well as discriminatory attitudes against LGBT people, traditional roles for women, abuse of children, sexism has long thrived in religious institutions, racism and and other despicable traits.

There are numerous good things that can be derived from religious teachings but underlying them is a lot of unpleasantness.

Weve had a spate of religious leaders facing charges of abuse, sexual assault of children and adults.. religious leaders who have used their positions of power and trust to slake sexual appetite and reek abuses among their congregations.

These abuses of power are not as rare as some might believe. And its not only one religion .. such crimes are common among all religions.

I read today that in Cornwall the education board has introduced Paganism as part of their curriculum.. why not, its a religion. Christians have been up in arms about it ... .. its a religion .. and whats note its part of their heritage.

I think theyd be better served redefine Religious Education to Mythologies Education .. its a thought

[Zarathustra]

What I suspect Z is getting at is that it is insufficient for God to have become more tolerant and less vicious. God should not have become better; turned over a new leaf. This is rather convincing evidence that the God of this specific belief system does not exist. The reason any religion that has a problem with slavery, wife beating, etc, but did not have a problem with it at any time in the past, is not because the divine being at the head of that religion changed its mind. It is because the followers of that religion became better people over the generations.

Yes, well put.

We all became better people, not just the Christians. Put a modern human into those times and he'd likely be just as bad. Our societies remade us. We have the luxury now of not being brutal because our lives are so easy. When you are desperate, you are more open to brutality.

Freedom of thought, speech, movement, and trade not only made us more prosperous but also more virtuous. Rather than casting us into an amoral chaos, breaking the shackles of dogma did the opposite. Humans in Western societies have more protections, rights, freedom, tolerance, and justice than any time in human history. We have not only made secular society more virtuous, but we've also cleaned up most of the barbarism of Christianity, too.

Surely this is one of the deepest ironies of history. Not only is God unnecessary to achieving a virtuous society, but society's move away from God is what ended up pulling Christianity out of the Dark Ages into a more virtuous stance.

None of us can take the credit for it. It's a new set of memes that have altered our firmware. We all have a new operating system, a baseline worldview that now includes shooting ourselves in spaceships to touch heavenly bodies. Stepping onto the moon was a giant leap for mankind, but it was also mucking about in moondust. The moon is not a heavenly light, it's a pile of rock as dark as charcoal. We've transcended our folly with a mundane reality.

Transcendence in the mundane. That's reality. That's the 'miracle.'

[Gaius Octavius]

What I suspect Z is getting at is that it is insufficient for God to have become more tolerant and less vicious. God should not have become better; turned over a new leaf. This is rather convincing evidence that the God of this specific belief system does not exist. The reason any religion that has a problem with slavery, wife beating, etc, but did not have a problem with it at any time in the past, is not because the divine being at the head of that religion changed its mind. It is because the followers of that religion became better people over the generations.

Not to mention why God, who is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing, can't take care of himself whenever someone blasphemes him. It doesn't make sense that people should feel any need to punish blasphemy. Only an inanimate idol needs protection from such things.

[SoulBiter]

Happy Easter to you all!!!!

[Fist and Faith]

Especially V and Z!

[Vraith]

Especially V and Z!

Thanks!
I was considering celebrating this special April Fool's Easter by inserting a classic Jesus into Monty Python, with JC saying "I'm not dead yet!"

And there's a pretty funny joke [to me anyway---]...
To do it justice requires a very long story set-up, but I'll jump to the punchline, which is...
"So Jesus died..."
"Yes, yes...good so far..."
"And three days later he rose up..."
"Right!. Great..."
"And he comes out of his tomb....And if he sees his shadow...

[Fist and Faith]

Good lord! The Python idea is brilliant!

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Happy Easter to you all!!!!

He is risen! Alleluia!