The Mueller Investigation

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Note .. thousands of pages of documents.

Volume of information does not equate to quality of information.

If Mueller had anything on Trump then Trump would be on trial. He is putting maximum pressure on Manafort just to see if he will squeal about anything that can be thinly construed as "conspiracy".

I still maintain that they should be glad that I am not the one in charge. I would already have urged Congress to impeach Rosenstein then appoint someone who will end the investigation. Either that or I would have already pardoned everyone for everything with which they have been charged. Simple.

[Skyweir]

Indeed .. paper in and of itself is just paper

However, the evidence is compelling and is supported by intel findings .. so I find that rather to compelling to ignore. But hey .. thats just me and my take

Ok Z perhaps take a look at the following .. from the US Office of the Director of National Intelligence Directorate, Background to "Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections": The Analytic Process and Cyber Incident Attribution, which can be read in full here..
https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

Please note the word "intrusion" .. not attempted intrusion and then pluralise the word and that is what the Russians are charged with.

The Kremlin's campaign aimed at the US election
featured disclosures of data obtained through
Russian cyber operations; intrusions into US state
and local electoral boards; and overt propaganda.
Russian intelligence collection both informed and
enabled the influence campaign.

We assess that the General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU)
operations resulted in the compromise of the personal
e-mail accounts of Democratic Party officials and political figures.
By May, the GRU had exfiltrated large volumes of data from the DNC.

As to their media campaign

State-owned Russian media made
increasingly favorable comments about President elect
Trump as the 2016 US general and primary
election campaigns progressed while consistently
offering negative coverage of Secretary Clinton.

Starting in March 2016, Russian Government-
linked actors began openly supporting
President-elect Trump's candidacy in media.

This report is a declassified version of a highly classified assessment, its conclusions are identical to those in the highly classified
assessment but this version does not include the full supporting information on 4 key elements of the influence campaign.
aimed at English-speaking audiences.

RT and Sputnik-another government-funded outlet
producing pro-Kremlin radio and online
content in a variety of languages for
international audiences-consistently cast
President-elect Trump as the target of unfair
coverage from traditional US media outlets
that they claimed were subservient to a corrupt
political establishment.

mmm ... a familiar carrion cry .. no?

This sound familiar?

Putin's chief propagandist Dmitriy Kiselev used
his flagship weekly newsmagazine program
this fall to cast President-elect Trump as an
outsider victimized by a corrupt political
establishment and faulty democratic election
process that aimed to prevent his election
because of his desire to work with Moscow

RT's coverage of Secretary Clinton throughout the
US presidential campaign was consistently negative
and focused on her leaked e-mails and accused her
of corruption, poor physical and mental health, and
ties to Islamic extremism.

Some Russian officials echoed Russian lines for the influence campaign
that Secretary Clinton's election could lead to a war
between the United States and Russia.

Russia used trolls as well as RT as part of its
influence efforts to denigrate Secretary Clinton.
This effort amplified stories on scandals about
Secretary Clinton and the role of WikiLeaks in the
election campaign.

And the why

Pro-Kremlin proxy Vladimir Zhirinovskiy, leader
of the nationalist Liberal Democratic Party of
Russia, proclaimed just before the election that
if President-elect Trump won, Russia would
"drink champagne" in anticipation of being
able to advance its positions on Syria and
Ukraine.

Russia's effort to influence the 2016 US presidential
election represented a significant escalation in
directness, level of activity, and scope of effort
compared to previous operations aimed at US
elections.

We assess the 2016 influence campaign
reflected the Kremlin's recognition of the
worldwide effects that mass disclosures of US
Government and other private data ...have
achieved in recent years, and their understanding
of the value of orchestrating such disclosures to
maximize the impact of compromising information.

Putin's public views of the disclosures suggest
the Kremlin and the intelligence services will
continue to consider using cyber-enabled
disclosure operations because of their belief
that these can accomplish Russian goals
relatively easily without significant damage to
Russian interests.

we assess Russian
intelligence began a spearphishing campaign
targeting US Government employees and
individuals associated with US think tanks and
NGOs in national security, defense, and foreign
policy fields.

This campaign could provide material
for future influence efforts as well as foreign
intelligence collection on the incoming
administration's goals and plans.

[Cail]

Note .. thousands of pages of documents.

Volume of information does not equate to quality of information.

If Mueller had anything on Trump then Trump would be on trial. He is putting maximum pressure on Manafort just to see if he will squeal about anything that can be thinly construed as "conspiracy".

I still maintain that they should be glad that I am not the one in charge. I would already have urged Congress to impeach Rosenstein then appoint someone who will end the investigation. Either that or I would have already pardoned everyone for everything with which they have been charged. Simple.

Rosenstein, the media, and the progressive Left are doing the Russian's bidding.....They're sowing the seeds of discord, and muddling our politics. The Russians succeeded, and the FBI, the media, and the Left are their useful idiots.

[Zarathustra]

Ok Z perhaps take a look at the following .. from the US Office of the Director of National Intelligence Directorate, Background to "Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections": The Analytic Process and Cyber Incident Attribution, which can be read in full here..
https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

Please note the word "intrusion" .. not attempted intrusion and then pluralise the word and that is what the Russians are charged with.

The Kremlin's campaign aimed at the US election
featured disclosures of data obtained through
Russian cyber operations; intrusions into US state
and local electoral boards; and overt propaganda.
Russian intelligence collection both informed and
enabled the influence campaign.

If you go on to read what that means, it states:

Russian Cyber Intrusions Into State and Local Electoral Boards. Russian intelligence accessed elements of multiple state or local electoral boards. Since early 2014, Russian intelligence has researched US electoral processes and related technology and equipment.

 DHS assesses that the types of systems we observed Russian actors targeting or compromising are not involved in vote tallying.

The "intrusion" is described in terms of "accessing" and "researching." I'm not sure this qualifies as "breaking into." It's not really clear from this. What is clear from this is that none of their efforts had anything to do with votes. In other words, Russia didn't interfere in the election.

[Skyweir]

Indeed .. not involved in "vote tallying".... "intrusions into multiple state or local electoral boards"

They obtained data through these "intrusions" .. that is an offence.

It doesnt matter if it did or did not have anything to do with votes .. this ISNT about discrediting the 2016 election outcome .. its about Russian interference.

[Savor Dam]

If a bushy-haired stranger were to try all my doors and windows, but fail to find any unlatched, I would not be inclined to dismiss the incident with "No breach, no problem." I'd be pretty eager to pursue having that person identified and called to account for the attempt...and I'd certainly want to know where they got the ladder used to access upper-story windows.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Indeed, but what not enough people are talking about is that all these Russian attempts to access the election system were happening during Obama's second term. Either the intelligence agencies knew about it at the time or they didn't. If they did know, either they didn't do enough to stop it or they secured what they could and hoped for the best. If they did not know, then what the heck were they doing, just hoping Hillary would win?

If they knew and didn't do anything about it then that is collusion with a foreign power. The Trump Campaign, in and of itself, did no such thing. The fact that individual people involved with the campaign might have had some ties to Russia does not equate to the Campaign colluding with a foreign power.

[Kizza]

Indeed, but what not enough people are talking about is that all these Russian attempts to access the election system were happening during Obama's second term. Either the intelligence agencies knew about it at the time or they didn't. If they did know, either they didn't do enough to stop it or they secured what they could and hoped for the best. If they did not know, then what the heck were they doing, just hoping Hillary would win?

If they knew and didn't do anything about it then that is collusion with a foreign power. The Trump Campaign, in and of itself, did no such thing. The fact that individual people involved with the campaign might have had some ties to Russia does not equate to the Campaign colluding with a foreign power.

But does it change when the individual tied to the campaign exchanged intel with the Russians?
www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-06/trump-ad ... 6/10076882
I am not trying to hunt the witch here, but the whole hiding in plain site thing is intriguing.

[Zarathustra]

If a bushy-haired stranger were to try all my doors and windows, but fail to find any unlatched, I would not be inclined to dismiss the incident with "No breach, no problem." I'd be pretty eager to pursue having that person identified and called to account for the attempt...and I'd certainly want to know where they got the ladder used to access upper-story windows.

I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying that it's not inference.


Interference means that there was a change, an alteration, from an external source. When you interfere with something, you alter its course.

But does it change when the individual tied to the campaign exchanged intel with the Russians?
www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-06/trump-ad ... 6/10076882
I am not trying to hunt the witch here, but the whole hiding in plain site thing is intriguing.

Speaking of "hiding in plain sight," the Hillary campaign actually did obtain intel from the Russians (unlike the Trump campaign, which merely was open to the idea of receiving info), and this intel was then used to get a FISA warrant to allow our intelligence agencies to spy on her opponent's campaign and to begin a narrative which led to a Special Counsel investigation that threatens to undo the outcome of a Presidential election. None of this is disputed. It's right out in the open. Why is that not collusion with the Russians to affect an election?

[Kizza]

If a bushy-haired stranger were to try all my doors and windows, but fail to find any unlatched, I would not be inclined to dismiss the incident with "No breach, no problem." I'd be pretty eager to pursue having that person identified and called to account for the attempt...and I'd certainly want to know where they got the ladder used to access upper-story windows.

I'm not saying it's not a problem, I'm saying that it's not inference.


Interference means that there was a change, an alteration, from an external source. When you interfere with something, you alter its course.

But does it change when the individual tied to the campaign exchanged intel with the Russians?
www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-06/trump-ad ... 6/10076882
I am not trying to hunt the witch here, but the whole hiding in plain site thing is intriguing.

Speaking of "hiding in plain sight," the Hillary campaign actually did obtain intel from the Russians (unlike the Trump campaign, which merely was open to the idea of receiving info), and this intel was then used to get a FISA warrant to allow our intelligence agencies to spy on her opponent's campaign and to begin a narrative which led to a Special Counsel investigation that threatens to undo the outcome of a Presidential election. None of this is disputed. It's right out in the open. Why is that not collusion with the Russians to affect an election?

Maybe there was a problem there with Hillary too. But that must be for another thread eh? Otherwise we are deflecting again.
Lets find out where this one lands with the Trump boy first. He just went willingly to receive info for free!? So who gets a free lunch these days anyway?
Tie that back to the Trump Putin effort at the Helsinki summit and you are trying to create a defence of no Russian collusion or interference based on an assumption of some strategy, which you will likely underscore with the next line in a twitter rant..... Is twitter editable?
Please. We are all trying to cut through the left and right marketing from the media.

[Avatar]

If a bushy-haired stranger were to try all my doors and windows, but fail to find any unlatched, I would not be inclined to dismiss the incident with "No breach, no problem."

Clearly you don't live in Africa.

--A

[Skyweir]

Z there is no doubt the Russians DID interfere with the 2016 election .. god just read up thread .. they interfered with a raft of systems.

The Kremlin's campaign aimed at the US election
featured disclosures of data obtained through
Russian cyber operations; intrusions into US state
and local electoral boards; and overt propaganda.
Russian intelligence collection both informed and
enabled the influence campaign.

Russians obtained intelligence through intrusions into US state and local electoral boards.

And why should that concern the US

Russia's effort to influence the 2016 US presidential
election represented a significant escalation in
directness, level of activity, and scope of effort
compared to previous operations aimed at US
elections.

They also defied the FARA statute in that Russian media offices in Washington received directions from the Russian government.

And why does Russia care about the US election?

Pro-Kremlin proxy Vladimir Zhirinovskiy, leader
of the nationalist Liberal Democratic Party of
Russia, proclaimed just before the election that
if President-elect Trump won, Russia would
"drink champagne" in anticipation of being
able to advance its positions on Syria and
Ukraine.

[Skyweir]

And Hashi .. US intel advised the then government, Clinton and Trump about the available data on Russian efforts.

[Zarathustra]

Sky, inference means that something was altered by an external source, as I said above. If votes were not changed, then the election wasn't altered. If the election wasn't altered, then it's simply not factual to say that the Russians interfered with the election. It's pretty simple.

They may want to interfere, they may have tried to interfere, but these efforts had no effect.



Kizza, you really think that the activity which led to the Mueller investigation is not relevant in this thread? Ok.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

But does it change when the individual tied to the campaign exchanged intel with the Russians?
www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-06/trump-ad ... 6/10076882
I am not trying to hunt the witch here, but the whole hiding in plain site thing is intriguing.

The fact that a person might be tied to a campaign does not equal that person acting on the campaign's behalf. Consider the entire concept of "plausible deniability" which defined Regan's second term--there were people in his Administration doing things in an illegal manner because they thought they were fulfilling his policy agenda, even though they had no official authorization and certainly never informed him of what they were doing. The moment they started doing things they should not have done they stopped representing his Administration even though they were still part of it.

This is where Junior is now--he should not have attended the meeting with Veselnitskaya behind his father's back.

And Hashi .. US intel advised the then government, Clinton and Trump about the available data on Russian efforts.

Indeed they did. However, since they had all already concluded that Hillary would win they didn't do enough about it. It was merely annoying to them, not problematic. It became a problem only after she lost.

Anyway, Manafort's current trial is about fraud and money laundering; it has absolutely nothing to do with Russia or the Trump Campaign in any way.

[TheFallen]

This is where Junior is now--he should not have attended the meeting with Veselnitskaya behind his father's back.

Given Trump's default authoritarian stance on almost everything and his 80s tycoon-esque determination to dictate to those he perceives as subservient to his will with an absolute rod of iron , I'm having a hard time believing that his son of all people would dare do anything of this nature without his father's explicit prior permission, let alone behind his father's back.

I know, I know... my and anyone else's "hard time believing" in no way constitutes the slightest shred of proof. And I'd further bet heavily that no proof of collusion that directly implicates Trump will ever be found.

[Kizza]

I would like to believe that Trump junior attended the Vesilnistkaya meeting without the Dons knowledge. But hey, Dons campaign manager Manafort, son Trump Junior and son in law Kuschner were all there. What really happened? I admit I could use plausible deniability as defence if my son was out partying hard and did something dumb on the weekend, however in this instance I would say Trump has a toilet paper tail to show for his deniability.
The fact that the meeting was described as a waste of 20 minutes, doesn't detract from what was willingly ventured into. Vesilnistkayas proximity to one Yuri Chaika makes it intriguing.

Z, as for the deflection to Hillary... Trumps boy said it was a waste of 20 minutes. Unless Hillary was the hooker doing the golden showers on Dons fourposter in Moscow, or if there is some other plausible evidence, why aside from the cost and distraction would Trump supporters have an issue with the investigation? I would say that given his liking for backflips, strategy and agendas, added to the fact he is POTUS only means that he has more to lose than Hillary.

(I am no fan of Hillary Clinton but the raising of her name as an alarm for distraction is getting really old don't you think?)

[Skyweir]

Yeah I do .. and I cannot imagine so many self promoters in that hush hush meeting .. about adoption, or abortion or about the election, cos everyone does it .. gets dirt on their opponents etc ..

Not to mention the barrage of Russian talking points that Trumps uses .. that there is no connection at all.
But time will tell

[Cail]

Not to mention the barrage of Russian talking points that Trumps uses

Like arming the Ukrainians?

Or this new round of sanctions?

[Zarathustra]

Z, as for the deflection to Hillary... Trumps boy said it was a waste of 20 minutes. Unless Hillary was the hooker doing the golden showers on Dons fourposter in Moscow, or if there is some other plausible evidence, why aside from the cost and distraction would Trump supporters have an issue with the investigation? I would say that given his liking for backflips, strategy and agendas, added to the fact he is POTUS only means that he has more to lose than Hillary.

(I am no fan of Hillary Clinton but the raising of her name as an alarm for distraction is getting really old don't you think?)

Getting to the root cause of the Mueller investigation is not a deflection nor a distraction. Part of the discussion of this investigation--the subject of this thread--is whether or not the mere existence of the investigation is legitimate. Are you not aware that the Justice Department is defying Congressional subpoena to turn over the documents that explain why there is an investigation in the first place? Don't you think that's strange? Suspicious? The Clintons are reaching from beyond the grave of their dead campaign to try to impeach the guy who beat them. And they have done exactly what Trump is being accused of in order to do it! The irony here is staggering. We shouldn't be asking whether or not Trump colluded with the Russians to win (since there had never been any evidence of it), but why it's okay for Hillary to collude with the Russians (which we KNOW she did) in order to launch an official investigation into Trump on the basis of unverified Russian propaganda and flat out lies.

This is why the Justice Deptartment (well, Rosenstein) won't release the documents that prove this to be the case, namely, that the reasons for opening the investigation were entirely partisan, flimsy, and relied upon Russian propaganda, i.e. the fake dossier which Hillary paid for and the Russians supplied.

You think that's a distraction?? It's the freakin' point!