Kevin's Watch

Hoping to see this in my local cinema this weekend and I am hopeful that it's going to be a bit special. I've read an account of the first moon landing and am aware of how close to disaster it came, but nevertheless how much was achieved using the relatively limited technology of the day. I'm a bit disappointed that there has been a controversy over the apparent failure of the film to feature the flag planting scene; it wouldn't even have occurred to me had the issue not been raised in the media and it certainly won't influence my opinion of the film. Was it a deliberate omission on the point of the director/producers, I don't know - but it seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup to me.

The film has been getting pretty glowing reviews across the board from what I've seen - I really want to get out and see it myself; I am usually super-fussy with what I will fork out $$ to sit in a cinema, I don't go to the movies a lot.

But this one might entice me I reckon ...

Post us a review once you've seen it Peter

peter wrote:... but it seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup to me.

The mission to the moon is one of the greatest of human achievements. Planting a flag is just an act of colonialism. I can totally understand how producers, who make more money outside of the US than in it, might want to de-emphasize the latter.

The erecting of the United States flag after landing on the Moon was perfectly normal for the time. Had the Soviet Union gotten there first they would have done the same. If England, China, India or any other nation had been first to the Moon in the 1960s it would have been no different.To coin a phrase it is what it is. Having said that only people looking for an excuse to feel annoyed would even notice that the scene wasn't included.
The truth is there isn't a race, creed, nationality or faith that isn't represented by the citizens of the United States and no other national flag on Earth is more appropriate to represent humanity as a whole in this way. Maybe by the time humans land on Mars it will be of a more global effort and they will plant an as yet un adopted flag of Earth.
Either way I couldn't care less.

Alas due to family stuff it didn't happen this weekend, but I did see a TV review that was interesting and bears repetition here. Apparently the film, rather than being simply a nuts and bolts account of the difficulties of pulling off the mission, has a lot of content pertaining to Armstrong as a man, his introversion and difficulties in forming relationships (he had almost to be bullied into talking to his own son apparently). Also, it appears that the film has been shot using three kinds of frame rate or film or something, so that it actually 'evolves' as it progresses through the story, and all the while using a haunting type of electrical music - that one that's made by an instrument where a rod is brought closer and further away from an upright pole and was used in those old fifties films of 'alien invasion' and stuff. All sounds very interesting and I will definitely spring for the big screen viewing of this one.

America landed on the moon first because we had to show the world that we were superior to the Soviet Union. My understanding is that the space program was suddenly the most important thing in the world, because it was unacceptable for those damned commies to get there first. Planting the flag was the whole point. It wasn't because of a love of knowledge, or exploration. It wasn't done for humanity, despite the "giant leap for mankind.". It WAS a giant leap for mankind, but that's not why it was done. It was done because, as that hysterical movie put it: America! Fuck Yeah!

All that being the case, I couldn't care less.

Got it in one.

--A

For me, no flag = no ticket.
It was purposely omitted as not to offend anyone.
So the movie is trash, imo.

Well, leaving it out is certainly not an accurate portrayal of the motivation behind the events. But I've never watched anything out of patriotism, so not a problem for me. If it's an accurate portrayal of the technical side of the story, it might be interesting. Like Apollo 13. Awesome. I probably won't see it, regardless.

From what I understand, much of the effects work was done in-camera, which is a nice touch. And apparently the lunar sequences are in IMAX. This may be worth going to the theater.

Going to the moon was unquestionably an American victory over the Soviets. It was the finish line in the space race. That's just an historical fact. Wishing to downplay history--or American superiority--for political correctness is exactly why Hollywood is so out of touch with much of America. If the movie makers care more about making money than historical accuracy and/or American pride, they could have simply cut the scene for overseas release. For an American audience, it makes no sense. It only reinforces the impression that one side of the political spectrum (to which Hollywood obviously leans) thinks little of the idea of American greatness.

Planting the flag obviously wasn't "colonialism." There is no moon colony!

And going to the moon wasn't a "human" achievement. It was an American victory. The flag was a celebration of this victory. Humans have been around for millions of years. It was only until the birth of the greatest civilization on earth that humans began to fulfill their true potential. Being human is the lowest common denominator for us all. You can say it about anyone. But only America has put humans on the moon. Without recognizing that fact, you leave out HOW humans got there! They wouldn't have done it if there hadn't been an America.

Ascribing this achievement to all humans, spreading it out among us all, robs those who actually achieved it of their own achievement. We funded it with our tax dollars. Our free market system produced those tax dollars. Our pioneering spirit drove us to desire technological superiority. Our President gave us this challenge. Our people made it happen.

Leaving out the flag planting makes as much sense as saying "humans won World War II. It was a human achievement." It's historical revisionism with an anti-American bias. Plain and simple. I wouldn't blame anyone for skipping such propaganda.

America! Fuck Yeah!

And you're right. Still, we're where we are because Greece did what it did, Rome did what it did, the Ottomans did what they did, France did what it did, England did what it did... America is at the end of a chain. It would not exist, much less be able to do what it's done, if not for that chain. And that's only looking at a few big examples in the West. One day, the chain will be longer, America no longer at the end, with sovergn planets that were once colonies of Earth, doing extraordinary things. They'll owe their existence to the chain, though they'll say everything they are and do is due to their own political and economic systems. But that chain is humanity. And everything that happens IS a human achievement. Humanity tamed fire. Humanity learned to farm. Humanity forged iron. Humanity made gunpowder. Humanity crossed oceans. Humanity went to the moon. Humanity tamed the atom.

But yeah, the movie's bent is surely due to PC crap, not any grand feeling about this being the current link in the chain of humanity's march through time.

How many of you poo-pooing the film have seen it? If ya haven't, you're no better than the religious fundies poo-pooing The Last Temptation of Christ prior to seeing it.


Give the movie a chance. If it sucks, say so. But crapping on it because you heard something, even though you have no proof? Didn't we just go through this with a SCOTUS justice?

Cail, I'm not poo-pooing the movie. Maybe the movie is great. This isn't a film review. It's a criticism of a choice to downplay the greatest American achievement as an American achievement.

I don't mind to see the movie. But I'm not going to give money to support such PC anti-American revisionism. What if I paid to see it and then still didn't like it? Do I get my money back? No. I don't have the option vote with my dollars once I've already paid my dollars. So while it might seem closed minded to refrain from giving money prior to seeing it, there's no other option if I want to send a monetary message.

Fist, you are right that we stand at the end of a chain of human development--but so does every other country on the planet. Something made us different. If we don't acknowledge that, we'll never understand it. And if we don't understand it, we won't understand what makes humans achieve their full potential.

We don't treat any other achievement like this. We don't downplay the Egyptian nature of the pyramids at Giza, nor downplay the Chinese contribution to the Great Wall of China. We allow those cultures to own their achievements. Only America must "share" its achievements with the rest of the world (the global equivalent of participation trophies ). But if *we* adopt things from other cultures, we're accused of "cultural appropriation."

You are aware that the initial reports on the film said that there were no American flags in the movie, right? You're also aware that that was BS, right?

Neil Armstrong's son's love the movie (which they should, since they were consultants on it). That's good enough for me. But then again, I'm not looking for something to be outraged about.

Ok, cool. It has flags. If they had just said, "You know, it didn't occur to us to include the flag planting moment. We weren't alive then. We didn't see it happen, so it isn't part of our mental imagery for that moment." That would be fine. It's the conscious decision to exclude it that bothers me, and the explanations for it bother me even more. Ok, they wanted to make a story about one man. But then why say that his achievement transcends borders? Is this one man's story, or all of humanity's story? The explanations sound like contradictory bullshit. It's okay to tell the personal story, or the universal humanity story, but not the level in between? No. This is what a movie about America's greatest achievement looks like when it's made by liberal Canadians. That's it.

I don't really care what his sons think. They didn't go the moon.

Just because something bothers me doesn't mean I'm looking for something to outraged about. Come on. Everyone's outrage is silly except for yours, right?

Wait ... the movie doesn't show the mission to the moon? That's a rip off.

Or are you guys saying the greatest achievement of mankind wasn't getting to the moon, it was poking a flag in it after we got there? If so, I disagree. I think getting to the moon was harder.

Pretty much.

The point being that it's silly to pre-judge something just because of "insert silly thing here". And it's especially silly to mix politics and art, because to do so (in your case) would be to not enjoy any art, movies, TV shows, or music at all, as in nearly all cases, artists are ill-informed progressive leftists (or worse, ill-informed empty vessels parroting positions that they think are popular and will help them sell their product).

I don't care whether you see it or not, as I have zero financial stake in the film. But you (and many other self-styled conservatives) have taken an evangelical position regarding it, and (to me) that's just funny.

WF, walking is pretty easy. Lots of people can do it. Does this mean that walking on the moon was insignificant? Based on the way you frame the question, we'd have to say yes. I think your sarcastic dismissal is missing something important. The ease of the particular action--whether poking something into the dirt or walking around--is a silly way to judge the value of the act. Context matters.

Despite the ease of poking the flag into the dirt, it's a symbol that defines this greatest achievement as a uniquely American achievement. What is wrong with giving credit where credit is due? I mean, it *is* true. That *is* the historical context. There was a space race between two superpowers. One of them won. And this geopolitical, technological race to superiority is what delivered the "greatest human achievement" to the rest of the humans who merely sat back and watched. I think that one particular side of the political spectrum wants to whitewash human events in order to take out the very element which not only drives us to seek such heights, but also allows us to do it.

Why do flags only matter to this side of the political spectrum when they are being disrespected at football games, or burned during unpopular wars, or too conspicuous to put into movies? It's not that our flag is unimportant to this side, it's just that it is only important in terms of disrespecting, burning, or erasing. When is it okay to celebrate the flag and what it stands for? If the moon landing is not such a moment to be proud of one's flag and one's country, then when???

Pride in our flag is being eliminated from our culture. It's pretty hard to miss that this is going on. I don't have to look for it (Cail!), it's in our face.

Cail, politics and art are mixed all the time. Politics is even mixed with sports! You should aim your criticism at the ones who are doing this. The conscious choice to eliminate the flag planting was a political choice, no matter what the filmmakers disingenuously claim. They created the controversy.

It shouldn't be political at all to include important historical moments in an historical movie. Why are facts political? Hell, why is the flag political?