Kevin's Watch

Very simple yet incredibly astute analysis Nerdanel! (and later the shattering of the wonderful innocence, has some Biblical implications, doesn't it? But I am jumping ahead again and will apply my brakes hard! RIGHT NOW! )

Yes, I think Lena is young and naive, and doesn't recognize the danger she might be walking into -- despite the ancient warnings about Kevin's Watch.

As for Atiaran, she has seen TC destroy another beautiful, innocent thing in her world, and is probably determined that he will not have the chance to destroy another.

I dunno what Elena's deal is. Greed? Lust for power? Lust for her father? A lovely combination of all three?

Well, anyhow, we aren't there yet. Back to Lena -- I am struck by how naive she is, but I'm also struck by her fear of doing something wrong. On the Watch, TC is brusque and angry, pulling away his hand somewhat roughly; she retreats and bites her lip as if to stop herself from crying. She is tender-hearted, scared of doing the wrong thing. Very different from American teens, who cover their uncertainty with a mask of cynical bravado!

I'd have to go along with caamora - I think LF is definitely trying to psych TC out. He has been beaten before and he doesn't like it.
Like the bully in the playground when the new kid who's bigger than him (but doesn't like or know how to fight) joins his school...
Lena is just opposite - has no pretense(?sp) about defeat. Just knows the Land is worth fighting for & willing to go out on a limb to do what she can.
Poor ol' TC.....I wonder how he'll deal with this.......

Hellfire! he'll probly want to take his ball & go home...

Hellfire! I hate living in this timezone!
Nerdanel said that LF resembles Sauron. I disagree. To me, at least, Foul seems much more invovlved in the situations. Saurons power relies on a physical item. Not so/the Despiser. And Fouls trying to leave the Land, not conquer or destroy it...

Like in the final scene of TPTP, I believe the Despiser is trying to intimdate scare, and as Caamora said 'pysche out' Covenant. He knows of Covenants suprior powers, and also knows he cant physically defeat him, so he tries to phsychologically grind him down. Covenant, however, is much to strong, and has been through too much to let that happen.

This post will probably be drowned out by other West Coasters...o well.

I think that Lena, Ataiarn, and Elena all want to help other people so much that they rush to the rescue without thinking about the long term affect of their actions. They are like Shakespearean characters in a tragedy -- they all have fine points to their characters, brave and beautiful and intelligent and have a strong desire to serve others -- but if they all three have the same fatal flaw it's not thinking counsequences through. Lena running up to help someone fight a cloud -- what could she do? Foul would have flattened her like a bug. Atiaran -- the urviles would have stomped her butt flat. Elena -- well, we will see what she does. And it's all from a deep seated need to help others. Isn't it horrible how Foul can take such a good thing and corrupt it?

Thanks, guys! I've never seen the similarity between Drool and Gollum before! Or the similarities between the three women!

Yeah they are similar .. but still very different.

Drool is a more in your face kind of evil stupid dude and Smeagol/Gollum is a complex conflicted character .. and to be honest they dont even sound similar to me.

Smeagol is an interesting character and not entirely evil .. tis the ring that is the evil .. and has possession of Gollum ...

Drool is incredibly simplistic and base .. he is a leader .. and wants to harnass power .. any power to claim some supremacy ..

AS FOR THE WOMEN
All these women above mentioned were still noble and valiant in their desires to aid .. it was a fundamental element of their creed ..

Donaldson writes women well .. I would far rather have someone attempt to aid someone in need .. than sit back and scream and complain ..

'woe is me

..

oh dear what shall I do .. little insubstantial female me ..

I might break a nail if I make the attempt ..

or

I may be crushed by that big grey cloud hovering overhead .. if I make the attempt

Lena did make some assessment however .. before rushing headlong into danger .. she determined that a little help early/now .. may be more valuable than a lot of help too late ..

Sure she is just a 16 year old girl .. but does this teenage rash impetuous spontaneity surprise you?? Sounds true to character to me ..

Very brave .. and was she crushed by that grey cloud?? No ..

Did she aid TC .. well yes she did.

In the next few chapters we may have more reason to criticise her naivity .. but isnt that also something that a sheltered young person that Lena clearly was .. would be .. naive .. trusting ..

And remember she recognised TC as Berek re-visited .. a legendary hero ... a representation of valour and goodness .. Why would she expect she couldnt trust such a person .. in her own mind.

I dont decry Lena .. she was good and brave to aid TC ..

Atiaran her mother revered the Wraiths .. even though an attempt to save them seemed useless .. how could she just stand by and watch them being slaughtered .. Instinctively she had to aid.

If she didnt .. could she live with herself having not made the attempt? She found it difficult enough even having made the attempt .. how much worse if she hadnt .. worse than death .. to her.

Yes she made a choice between then .. at that moment .. the preservation of the ring-bearer or the preservation of the wraiths .. but remember she believed the ring-bearer had a ring of great power ..

And she as TC's guide .. if she sacrificed herself .. how would TC deliver his message to the Lords??

Yes .. on that I wont say Atiaran wasnt rash to jump headlong into potential disaster .. the disaster of not guiding TC to Revelstone .. the disaster that would mean for the entire Land ..

In the face of the present crisis .. that choice would have been difficult to see clearly I think for Atiaran.

I just thought of an idea, I don't know if this is the right stage for it, but here goes anyway.

I was surfing the web and came across Henrik's Reviews of Science Fiction and Fantasy Literature: www.ludd.luth.se/~doomdark/treatise.html and I found in the casting section the following description:

THE SUPREME EVIL is the true antagonist. He or she is a god of unequaled power, who lets the Dark Wizard do its bidding in the first book. However, since the Dark Wizard fails, the Supreme Evil must enter the world itself and usher in a new Age of Darkness. The Supreme Evil only has a cameo appearance in the first book, but becomes the main opponent in the sequels. The Supreme Evil is defeated in the cataclysmic conclusion to the seventh or so book in the series.

Wouldn't it be interesting, I thought to myself, to do a comparison / review of the evil characters in fantasy literature. Since this was the chapter in which Lord Foul was introduced, and Nerdanel has found similarities with Tolkein's Sauron, and we also had a thread on Foul - Satan, this seemed to be the obvious next step...

-pitch

I think the thing I find most interesting is the almost biblical manner in which Foul delivers his message to TC. It made me think back on the Book of Revelations - cryptic yet powerful.

Of course - it's interesting (for myself at least ) to note just how much detail TC is able to remember later on - he almost recites Foul's words verbatim - considering how much attention he must have been paying (not much I thought) his memory is excellent.

Of course - he also asserts that he is dreaming and he needs to move forward to make it end. And I'm trying not to leap into the chapters to come

I agree I too was stunned at the acuity of Tc's recall .. he did rehearse the instructions Foul gave him verbatim ..

quite impressive .. if not a little odd ..

I think LF wrote those instructions on TC's subconcious w/indelible ink. At least that's always been my way of getting around that issue--when that doesn't seem 2 work I tell myself that the wild magic remembers. Boy! If u guys were my butcher I'd need a mircoscopic fork 2 avoid starving 2 death! (isn't it fun! ) Give the story a little bit of a break...please.

Rigth on Danlo - Foul's presence flattened TC to the stone without touching him - seems like the message would be tatooed on TC's brain without his even trying to remember

I agree with everyone who thinks there was magic involved in TC's perfect recollection.

Continuing still about Drool and Gollum, I'd say Drool is a sort of a subset of Gollum. Drool is a fairly undeveloped character that is purely evil as far as we can see, while Gollum is much more complex but still has a lot of evil in him. The following piece is from LotR where he has learned the true nature of the Ring. The "Stinker" part of his split personality sounds a lot like Drool, although they phrase themselves differently. If he would have gotten the Ring, he would have gotten gradually even more corrupted until the Drool-like aspect of his personality was all that remained.

'Then take it,' said the other, 'and let's hold it ourselfs! Then we shall be master, gollum! Make the other hobbit, the nasty suspicious hobbit, make him crawl, yes gollum!'

...

'No, sweet one. See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Sméagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day, fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it, we wants it, we wants it!'

Another interesting correlation is that both Gollum's and Drool's eyes glow: Drool's red, Gollum's green or pale depending on his mood.

I've finally got a chance to chime in on these chapters.

I love the contrast that SRD creats by taking us from Foul to Lena in just a manner of sentances. It's like he's bringing the scope of the land down into two beings. The ultimate evil and the ultimate innocence. We the reader are totally sucked in. First we are subjected to Foul and his boasting/plotting then refreshed with Lena and her pure desire to help. I think at some point to TC, Lena is the Land. She comes to him with no attachments, wants to help and heal...what does she get for it? Well, that's a whole other chapter but take a look at what TC does to Lena and what Foul does to the Land. (Fast foward...I think this is part of TC resistance...he sees how LF is trying to use him in the destruction of the Land)

Another thing that has struck me with these chapters is the depth of Foul's plotting. Here he gives us a glimpse but as the three books unfold we really see how "evil" he is. At every reading I am surprised at each revelation of Foul's manipulations.

Off for now...can't wait for the next couple of chapters!!

Lady Genni wrote:

Well, that's a whole other chapter but take a look at what TC does to Lena and what Foul does to the Land.

Hold that thought for two discussions hence, LG...

i have always thought that lf implanted the message in tc's brain somehow. when he delivers it to the lords its almost as if the message is delivering itself

Foul wouldn't have smashed Lena like a bug -- he had some bad mojo plans for that poor girl and for her whole family for that matter

I also always thought that LF's message was imprinted on TC's soul. That's how he could remember it so well. I always pictured TC reciting the message in a dazed, almost zombie-esqe (sp?) manner.

About Atiaran. It always seemed to me that she was an unhappy person. Unhappy with Trell - who always seemed to me to be a caring, loving, and gentle husband, unhappy with the life of being a wife and mother. Even the presence of her daughter, Lena, gave her little joy. Was she so depressed that she never completed the Loresraat? Maybe she felt that she missed her calling.

I agree about Atiaran. I think that she felt like a failure her whole life because she dropped out of school. TC is rude to her, but she is equally mean to him. She never believes him when he says that he's a stranger and doesn't know what's going on. She always seems to think that he's a lord or something and is sneaking around to check up on her ignorance. But all of this can be spoken of later, when get to the journey chapters.

God, was Foul planning planning on using Lena that early??????????