Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:00 am
Have a look here for the source. It has one or two other interesting bits of info
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Vain wrote:I am unfortunately - or unfortunately - unable to draw comparisons with Tolkien as I haven't read LOTR et al. I figure I should do so at some stage
That is one possibility. The other that comes to my mind is spoiler fodder unfortunately.Vain wrote:I figure that LF doesn't interfere with Drool using the staff of Law as he (LF) is still too weak - the RoD must have severely depleted his resources.
This is essentially what LF conveys to Covenant in his message. He says (about Drool) that:Vain wrote: As for warning the Lords about drool - it's really a Catch 22 situation. If they don't halt drool rockworms plans, then drool will rule and destroy the Land - possibly taking LF out as well. If they do halt him then LF will be able to recover sufficiently to let loose his own madness. Tough call.
So - perhaps it is initially self preservation that drives LF.
The use of "high" suggests that even those with power will be at the mercy of Drool, Lord Foul himself for example. This is plausible considering his weakened state."He searches for the Illearth Stone. If he becomes its master, there will be woe for low and high alike until Time itself falls.
"LOTR is "willing, potent hero"
1TC is "unwilling, potent hero"
2TC is "willing, impotent hero
I just have to disagree with your comparison here. If you want to compare Drool to someone in LOTR I would choose Saruman, because Drool obviously is someone with his own agenda which is totally destroyed by his association with a more powerful evil.Anonymous wrote:SD uses the same elements of LOTR to define the bounderies of the Land. It sets up expectations and lays a framework. The moment Lena tells TC of his resemblance to Berek Halfhand and the power ensconced in his wedding band - plus we've already met Lord Foul (Sauron) and his subhuman pawn Drool (Gollum)- we know where the story is going.
I believe that TC's leprosy is not a metaphor for his potency. I see his leprosy as only the root cause of his lack/rejection of his natural empathy. Because of his leprosy he has been rejected by everyone he knows and thus he has rejected his own sense of empathy to protect himself from that rejection. This is his real problem in the Land. Because he does not want to allow himself to feel anything for the people of the land he picks easiest way out and chooses not to believe in the Land at all. From this stems all his choices in the Land, for although his problem is empathy he continues to blame his leprosy for them all through the first chronicles. He also is not very good at making logical choices because his feelings keep getting in the way. At the end of TPTP when he confronts the despiser he is only capable of doing so because he has found that his inner world (the Land) has given him the strength to withstand the outer worlds rejection of him. This means that he can believe in himself i.e. he can believe in the Land and at the same time he can unbelieve the Land as a separate reality.Note how SD uses TC's leprosy as a metaphor for his potency! In 1TC, hurtloam cures his leprosy, rendering him potent where he expects to be impotent. In 2TC, earthpower has been corrupted and so his leprosy cannot be cured - rendering him impotent when he expects to be potent.
Actually,Then I find this interesting :
Spoiler
Samadhi=Sanskrit for Self Collectedness
Sheol = Hebrew for Hell
Moksha=Hindu for Enlightenment
Jehannum = Kipling's way of spelling the Hebrew Gehenna which means Hell
Turiya=Sanskrit for Free of thoughts
Herem = Hebrew for Destruction
Is the intended point that LF reaches out and chooses (actively) a participant and at that point the Creator/Beggar can choose (passively) whether or not to allow that participant to be dragged into the Land?KonfusedofKettering: Hi Stephen
Can I take you to task on your reply toBizzaster in last months GI. You said
"Come on. The Creator in this story is supposed to be a humane guy. We know this because he does things like offer Covenant a life in the Land--and because he doesn't *Appoint* anybody (he doesn't deprive people like Covenant, or the people of the Land, of their right to make their own choices). He didn't pick Covenant: Lord Foul did. If Covenant is enabled to live out his life in the Land (complete with white gold), LF would eventually have to come up with entirely new strategies, strategies in which the Creator might have no "say" at all--and I would be writing an utterly different story. The Creator certainly wouldn't go around *Appointing* new champions."
I quickly scanned through the First chronicles to refresh my memory. In his various encounters with the creator at the start of LFB we don't see anything that would ammount to an appointment but on Kevins watch LF tells Covenant that his enemy chose him to meet this Doom. Foul to my memory has never been a liar as far as his opponents are concerned, his dishonesty is more in what he omits than what he reveals and he has no power over his intended victims if he is not credible. So one tends to believe him on this point.
At the end of TPTP the creator admits that he chose Covenant but otherwise left hime free to choose his own path. Covenant certainly isn't appointed in the way the Elohim appoint there own where by the apoointed must meed the need of their appointment or pay the consequences so in failing to stop Vane's purpose Findail must pay teh price by becoming part of the new staff of law.
Does the creators chosing of Covenant count as inhumane. I don't think you can fully reconcile it as a humane act but the creator is in a deparate position here. He is in his own way making a similar kind of bargain as Covenant does several times in the story except he's trying to balance his reponsibilities to Covenant and to the people and creatures of his creation. Covenant's bargains are to avoid any responsability to the land.
May I take it taht this lapse was due to an urgent need to pack.
[SRD] Clearly, I don't see this as a "lapse" in the same way that you do. And if there *is* a lapse involved, it probably has more to do with my phrasing in the GI than in the point I was trying to make about the Creator's nature. I grant that using words like "choose" and "chose" to describe the actions of both the Creator and the Despiser encourages--or at least permits--confusion.... The Creator chooses Covenant in the sense that any affirmation represents a voluntary leap of faith. How is that not a humane act?
The sickening sweet smell of attar, the enveloping grey fog: I like how Lord Foul is presented as an insidious, mysterious, almost seductive force, as it makes him scarier.In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] Chapter 3 was wrote:The creature jabbed his face toward the ceiling and cried, "Mine! My Staff! You saw. I called him. You saw!"
Covenant followed the red eyes upward, but he could see nothing there except the dizzy chiaroscuro of the clustered stone spikes.
"You had aid," the deep voice said. "The Staff was too hard a matter for you. You would have destroyed it in simple irritation, had I not taught you some of its uses. And my aid has its price. Do whatever else you wish. I claim this prize. It belongs to me."
The creature's rage subsided, as if he had suddenly remembered some secret advantage. "My Staff," he muttered darkly. "I have it. You are not safe."
"You threaten me?" The deep voice bristled, and its dangers edged closer to the surface. "Watch and ward, Drool Rockworm! Your doom grows upon you. Behold! I have begun!"
There was a low, grinding noise, as of great teeth breaking against each other, and a chilling mist intervened between Covenant and Drool, gathered and swirled and thickened until Drool was blocked from Covenant's sight. At first, the mist glowed with the light of the burning stones, but as it swirled the red faded into the dank, universal gray of fogs. The vile reek melted into a sweeter smell--attar, the odor of funerals. Despite the blindness of the mist, Covenant felt that he was no longer in Drool's cavern.
Lena's enthusiasm has a spell for me as well as for Covenant. I can feel that the Land is a nurturing place, and that it is vulnerable to destruction. Already I can see the value in protecting it, defending it.In [i]Lord Foul's Bane[/i] Chapter 4 was wrote:Gritting his resolve, Covenant turned and knelt against the parapet. With his chest braced on the rim, he forced himself to look.
"This is the Land," Lena said joyfully, as if the outspread earth had a power to thrill her. "It reaches far beyond seeing to the north, west, and east, though the old songs say that High Lord Kevin stood here and saw the whole of the Land and all its people. So this place is named Kevin's Watch. Is it possible that you do not know this?"
Despite the coolness of the breeze, Covenant was sweating. Vertigo knuckled his temples, and only the hard edge of the stone against his heart kept it under control. "I don't know anything," he groaned into the open fall.
Lena glanced at him anxiously, then after a moment turned back to the Land. Pointing with one slim arm to the northwest, she said, "There is the Mithil River. Our Stonedown stands beside it, but hidden behind this mountain. It flows from the Southron Range behind us to join the Black River. That is the northern bound of the South Plains, where the soil is not generous and few people live. There are only five Stonedowns in the South Plains. But in this north-going line of hills live some Woodhelvennin.
"East of the hills are the Plains of Ra." H er voice sparkled as she went on: "That is the home of the wild free horses, the Ranyhyn, and their tenders the Ramen. For fifty leagues across the Plains they gallop, and serve none that they do not themselves choose.
"Ah, Thomas Covenant," she sighed, "it is my dream to see those horses. Most of my people are too content--they do not travel, and have not seen so much as a Woodhelven. But I wish to walk the Plains of Ra, and see the horses galloping."
After a long pause, she resumed: "These mountains are the Southron Range. Behind them are the Wastes, and the Grey Desert. No life or passage is there; all the Land is north and west and east from us. And we stand on Kevin's Watch, where the highest of the Old Lords stood at the last battle, before the coming of the Desolation. Our people remember that, and avoid the Watch as a place of ill omen. But Atiaran my mother brought me here to teach me the Land And in two years I will be old enough to attend the Loresraat and learn for myself, as my mother did. Do you know," she said proudly, "my mother has studied with the Lorewardens?" She looked at Covenant as if she expected him to be impressed. But then her eyes fell, and she murmured, "But you are a Lord, and know all these things. You listen to my talk so you may laugh at my ignorance."
Under the spell of her voice, and the pressure of his vertigo, he had a momentary vision of what the Land must have looked like after Kevin had unleashed the Ritual of Desecration. Behind the luminous morning, he saw hills ripped barren, soil blasted, rank water trickling through vile fens in the riverbed, and over it all a thick gloom of silence--no birds, no insects, no animals, no people, nothing living to raise one leaf or hum or growl or finger against the damage. Then sweat ran into his eyes, blurred them like tears. He pulled away from the view and seated himself again with his back to the wall. "No," he murmured to Lena, thinking, You don't understand. "I did all my laughing--long ago."