The Problem of Free Will and the Point of Prayer.

[peter]

This was not the angle taken in the program I saw Wayfriend; the Methodist message was way more about direct communion between God and the individual without the need for the rigid adherence to rote and protocol or interpolation by an intermediary in the form of a church minister. Hence the reason why there are so many offshoots all doing their own thing, why extempore preaching is given so much weight in their services and (I'm guessing) why there is no well known Methodist hierarchy as in the Roman Church or CofE.

In respect of grovelling to God, I always liked Conan's take on his relationship with Crom; he didn't by and large pray to Crom because he thought that it would simply be seen as weakness and deserving of contempt. On the one occasion he did so (when the woman he loved had been taken by the Horde), he did so as follows; "Crom, I have never asked anything of you but today I ask for the protection of this woman and if you won't listen then the hell with you!" Oh, to be Conan, but alas I find myself more like Kenneth Williams of carry on fame; I'm a pleader - a miserable pleader!

(Does the old and very English humour of Carry On films translate across the ocean to the States? Do you get the word play in that famous line from ... I forget which film?)

[StevieG]

Going back a bit (I have a damn business to run - too much has happened since I dropped in here last ) - thanks Linna and Sam for giving snippets of the reasons you believe. Linna, it sounds like you liked the idea initially, and then had a profound experience which tipped the scales. And Sam, it sounds like it helped you in ways you are extremely grateful for, and is something inside you that is now part of you.

And yeah, not pushy at all. You need to go back in the archives of here and the Hall of Gifts to discover pushy

I think wayfriend has summed up the "submission, grovelling, gratitude" part of prayer that I have trouble with. This seems to be one of the biggies of why some people pray. It definitely doesn't sit well with me. It has also been pointed out that it seems futile and pointless. I agree with this (from my personal perspective). I suppose it's all about how the individual interprets things - I would strive, and have striven to have belief in myself, first and foremost, and find that this more than compensates for any requirement to submit to a higher power. We are the higher power, we control our lives. Rejoice in yourself (that's what I say!).

All this business about God's plan seems to me like an attempt to justify the construct that people thousands of years ago created.

Another reason I don't usually discuss it is because I've discussed it so damned many times!

"All you need is love", right Fist? That's all you ever need to say! End of discussion...

[wayfriend]

This is from Focus on the Family, but the same things are promoted almost everywhere. I find it illustrative.

On Hope.

11. Prayer Can Succeed Where Other Means Have Failed
Have all your options been exhausted? Prayer can succeed where other means have failed. Prayer should not be a last resort, but our first response. But there are times when sincere prayer must be offered in order to accomplish something.

12. Prayer Fulfills Emotional Needs
Do we need God through prayer? Yes! We were made to function best, emotionally, in a prayerful relationship with God. As C.S. Lewis put it, "God designed the human machine to run on Himself. He Himself is the fuel our spirits were designed to burn, or the food our spirits were designed to feed on. There is no other."

6. Prayer is Always Available
This point is covered separately in another article. But, in short, another reason to pray is because prayer is always available to us. Nothing can keep us from approaching God in prayer except our own choices (Psalm 139:7; Romans 8:38-39).

On Prostration.

7. Prayer Keeps us Humble Before God
Humility is a virtue God desires in us (Proverbs 11:2; 22:4; Micah 6:8; Ephesians 4:2; James 4:10). Prayer reminds us that we are not in control, but God is, thus keeping us from pride.

These I will put in the category of Appealing to Authority.

1. God's Word Calls Us to Pray
2. Jesus Prayed Regularly

These I will put in the category of Promising Miracles.

3. Prayer is How We Communicate with God
4. Prayer Allows us to Participate in God's Works
5. Prayer Gives us Power Over Evil
8. Prayer Grants us the Privilege of Experiencing God

And lastly, I have the category of Working for the Man.

9. Answered Prayer is a Potential Witness
If our prayer is answered, it can serve as a potential witness for those who doubt.

10. Prayer Strengthens the Bonds Between Believers
Prayer not only strengthens our relationship with God, but when we pray with other believers, prayer also strengthens the bonds between fellow Christians.

[Vraith]

I don't pray. It seems like the most futile thing a rational being could do, hoping that something is going to hear the quietest little cry for help you could possibly utter. I can't imagine anything making me feel more alone and hopeless. Prayer is the ultimate demonstration that reality does not conform to our desires merely by desiring. If wanting something were enough, if putting it into words and casting that want upon the void of the world's indifference were all it took to alter reality, our struggles and our efforts would be meaningless. Why struggle when all you have to do is want? I can't let myself be so naive and still feel true to myself. I can't face this world thinking that it owes me something, much less its attention, its audience, its caring. I can't turn myself into some character in a fairy tale and still feel wholly alive.

But that's just me.

Secondly the infinite universe possibility of quantum theory (if you accept that they all exist - Deutsch does) would have to include the universe where the ontological argument held water -

Sorry, peter...not so. Infinite universes doesn't mean every damn thing can/does happen, it means every POSSIBLE thing. Impossible things never happen, even in infinitiverses.

Z...I agree mostly/in general with that.
But not entirely/absolutely...
For one thing, not ALL prayer is of the nature you [and later WF] describe.

[[[edited to add this: WF just added some more on prayer I haven't read...I was talking about his first take on it...end edit]]]

But, other things/difficulties for your take:
You seem inclined [from other threads] to think every single thing has some portion of inherent meaning.
Also that there is some purposeful/teleological aspect to the universe.
Also that minds are in part non-material, beyond physics, and yet materially causal.
[[that's getting pretty mystical/religious there, in effect---and opening up some effective spaces]]
Also...I know you know that placebos WORK [sometimes]--that's belief alone.
Prayer also sometimes works.
You might or might not know that placebos sometimes work EVEN WHEN people KNOW they are placebos.
[[and not quite as relevant...even when people know it's a placebo, it works anyway, they have a side irrational belief that, if they know the price of two placebos, it makes more expensive placebo work better cuz price=quality...how stupid is that? but works]].
So, your beliefs about the universe, plus a couple facts in evidence, inherently imply rational, pragmatic, basis for use of prayer [prayer is thought, thought affects the material world...a world with innate purpose/meaning]

Pleading/begging isn't absolutely necessary...so self-offense should be mitigated/ameliorated...

But I'd suggest that if you're dying of lung cancer, you, you're wife and kids are struggling with more struggle ahead ESPECIALLY if you DO die, and you lie there saying "I just won't pray, even if it might work. My self/ego can't live that way"...
Well, that's kinda irrational and a bit of a dick move.

[[[Also...even I in total snarkjudgefuck mode would admit that most religions never claimed that just wanting was enough. They have enough fatal flaws without giving them one they don't have]]]

[Zarathustra]

You seem inclined [from other threads] to think every single thing has some portion of inherent meaning.
Also that there is some purposeful/teleological aspect to the universe.
Also that minds are in part non-material, beyond physics, and yet materially causal.
[[that's getting pretty mystical/religious there, in effect---and opening up some effective spaces]]
Also...I know you know that placebos WORK [sometimes]--that's belief alone.
Prayer also sometimes works.
You might or might not know that placebos sometimes work EVEN WHEN people KNOW they are placebos.
[[and not quite as relevant...even when people know it's a placebo, it works anyway, they have a side irrational belief that, if they know the price of two placebos, it makes more expensive placebo work better cuz price=quality...how stupid is that? but works]].
So, your beliefs about the universe, plus a couple facts in evidence, inherently imply rational, pragmatic, basis for use of prayer [prayer is thought, thought affects the material world...a world with innate purpose/meaning]

The fact that I think meaning is inherent rather than assigned has nothing to do with prayer. Neither does all the other things you list. When we have goals/purposes and then enact these in the world, prayer is not only unnecessary, but irrelevant. I don't think minds are beyond physics, I think physics needs to be redefined to take into account immaterial phenomena. But just because there exist immaterial phenomena doesn't mean this opens up every possible immaterial thing you can imagine (just as you told Peter). Minds don't imply ghosts or magic.

Placebos are another matter. They work because they trigger natural healing mechanisms within your body. Your body wants to heal, it was "designed" this way. But you can get in the way of your own healing, through creating stress with your own anxiety. Placebos work by reducing this stress and easing this anxiety. That is why they can work even when you know it's a placebo, because placebo effect is real. You can rationally trust in something you know is real. Placebo does not = "fake."

Prayer might be an effective placebo for some people, but only if they think it is real. If I think it's a futile waste of time, it's not going to work for me because it's not going to reduce my stress and anxiety. In other words, it's not going to trigger a placebo effect.

But I'd suggest that if you're dying of lung cancer, you, you're wife and kids are struggling with more struggle ahead ESPECIALLY if you DO die, and you lie there saying "I just won't pray, even if it might work. My self/ego can't live that way"...
Well, that's kinda irrational and a bit of a dick move.

That's a bit presumptuous of you to say. My family would never expect me to be inauthentic on my deathbed and violate my deepest beliefs out of fear. Also, there are lots of things that "might work." I'm not going to start believing in astrology or voodoo just because someone else thinks it might work.

[[[Also...even I in total snarkjudgefuck mode would admit that most religions never claimed that just wanting was enough. They have enough fatal flaws without giving them one they don't have]]]

I was drawing a distinction between expressing a desire through prayer and making your desires come true through acting. Acting vs inaction. I'm not saying that religions CLAIM that wanting is enough. I'm saying that this is what the distinction amounts to: hoping for something vs doing something. It's like when a school shooting happens and some people get frustrated with all the "hopes and prayers" talk because it's not taking action to stop future shootings.

[Vraith]

That's a bit presumptuous of you to say.

It's not, though you can take it that way, I suppose.
A placebo is NOT a real treatment...it is definitely a fake.
[Just like a prayer]
The placebo EFFECT happens/works for some people...even some who don't believe in the placebo. [perhaps by triggering some natural process as you say--but that triggering comes from the mind not the pill or whatever]
The prayer EFFECT happens/works for some people...even some who don't believe in prayer/god. [perhaps by triggering some natural process....]

The immaterial phenomena-yet-with-causal-power of mind/thought is
not different from immaterial phenomena-yet-with-causal-power of spirit/soul as far as we can tell at this point.
The basis/parts we can talk about and compare because they are material, testable, measurable are different---but the phenomena itself---if it exists---could be identical---different intuitions of the same thing. That is the main implication/similarity I was pointing out...there is no testable/measurable way to distinguish your immaterial mind aspects from someone else's immaterial soul. [[for now]].
[[your view and the view that gives rise to prayer also agree on inherent meaning. Both also agree the universe has inherent purpose.]]

I don't believe in the immaterial of EITHER mind or spirit...but that's just me, apparently.

[Zarathustra]

A placebo is NOT a real treatment...it is definitely a fake.

I was talking about the placebo EFFECT. I even said, "That is why they can work even when you know it's a placebo, because placebo effect is real." I understand that it's not really medicine. But the reason this is different from prayer, even in the case where one doesn't believe the placebo is real medicine, it that it's still a physical action of taking a pill. People are conditioned to expect this to do something because we grow up taking pills all our lives. Maybe it's a bit of a pavlov effect mixed in with placebo. I don't know. But there is no such response automatically built in for prayer, at least not for me. Prayer would have the opposite effect, namely, pissing me off that it's such a waste of time and how many people think it works. You're going to have to trust me on this. I know you think it's a DICK MOVE, but I know myself better than you. Prayer isn't going to work with me. And my family sure as fuck doesn't care whether I pray. Leave them out of this discussion, please.

The immaterial phenomena-yet-with-causal-power of mind/thought is
not different from immaterial phenomena-yet-with-causal-power of spirit/soul as far as we can tell at this point.

Except that there is no evidence of spirits/souls. There is evidence of minds. We can't tell the difference at this point? The difference is an empirical fact.

[[your view and the view that gives rise to prayer also agree on inherent meaning. Both also agree the universe has inherent purpose.]]

You clearly don't understand my position on either meaning or purpose. When I speak of inherent meaning in the world, I only mean that reality makes sense rather than it being inexplicable/nonsensical, not that it is "significant" or "all this means something." Nor do I think the universe has inherent purpose. Purpose is a phenomenon within the universe, namely, our purposes. Therefore, if we are nothing more than matter arranged by physical laws which have no purpose, then this description can't account for purpose arising in the world. Something is missing. Our description is incomplete and in need of revision/expansion or paradigm change. That's not the same as saying that the universe has inherent purpose! It has emergent purpose which calls into question the idea that everything that operates by physical laws is completely devoid of purpose.

Tell me again how this is anything at all like prayer?

I don't believe in the immaterial of EITHER mind or spirit...but that's just me, apparently.

So what is the mass of the redness of red? If it's material, then quantify it.

[Avatar]

The placebo effect is proof that your mind can manipulate reality.

Which means reality is malleable.

--A

[Zarathustra]

The placebo effect is proof that your mind can manipulate reality.

I thought our entire civilization is proof of that.

Which means reality is malleable.

--A

Or . . . minds are real.

[Fist and Faith]

But I'd suggest that if you're dying of lung cancer, you, you're wife and kids are struggling with more struggle ahead ESPECIALLY if you DO die, and you lie there saying "I just won't pray, even if it might work. My self/ego can't live that way"...
Well, that's kinda irrational and a bit of a dick move.

What if I lie there thinking, "I just won't pray, because there's no more reason to think it will cure me than flapping my arms real fast will make me fly."?

[Fist and Faith]

The placebo effect is proof that your mind can manipulate reality.

I thought our entire civilization is proof of that.

My mind alters reality every time it directs my body to take any action. Moving my finger the tiniest bit alters reality. As does taking tools and building a house, or blowing up a dam. It's difficult for my mind to NOT alter reality.

[Vraith]

You clearly don't understand my position


So what is the mass of the redness of red?

What if I lie there thinking, "I just won't pray, because there's no more reason to think it will cure me than flapping my arms real fast will make me fly."?

On the first Z: We've beaten this horse...at least lightly...in the other thread, so won't do it all again. The essentials:
A} I don't agree with your definitions or assumptions. And/But
B} Accepting those has unavoidable implications for you, one of which is you cannot [[as yet]] tell the difference between a Mind and a Soul, between a natural and a magical "essence."

On the second Z: I don't know what, exactly, qualia and other aspects of thought/mind/consciousness are fundamentally. But neither do you...I know you don't because no one does.
I don't believe in the im/non-material because:
A} We don't have anything close to complete understanding of the material.
B} The single, limited, thing we know about the immaterial is that so far it has proven, every time, to be totally unnecessary to explain anything.
C} We don't have even a hint of a whisper of a hope of a wish of a way to test/measure or even glimpse anything im/non-material.

On the Fisty:
Well, you'd be mistaken.
The best research I've seen over the years [by which I mean real, blind, replicable] shows:
Placebos
Meditation
Visualizations [which overlap somewhat but aren't identical to meditations]
Prayer [which overlaps but isn't identical to meditations]

All 4 of those things have, in some cases, small but persistent, measurable, and significant positive impacts on health/illness.

Arm-flapping has not made a person fly even once.

I don't believe there's anything magical/soul/god-given or blessing for any of them---when they work, I think, it is LITERALLY states of mind that do it, and those 4 things are just paths/methods/techniques to trigger/enact those states.

Edited to add: And I wan't talking about your family in any real/literal way...I wasn't even talking about you in a real/literal way.

[wayfriend]

All 4 of those things have, in some cases, small but persistent, measurable, and significant positive impacts on health/illness.

Yes, but you'd never suggest to a person with cancer that all they need to do is pray. Heck, you would never suggest it to a person with a hangnail.

Because "small but positive impact" doesn't get you very far. And you can't even count on it showing up to the game. It's not the way to bet, and it's darn-right irresponsible to suggest someone rely on it.

It helps. Sometimes. A bit. Such things can only be "also" at best. Anything else is, frankly, just mysticism in another guise.

[Zarathustra]

Accepting those has unavoidable implications for you, one of which is you cannot [[as yet]] tell the difference between a Mind and a Soul, between a natural and a magical "essence."

A mind is produced by a brain. Souls are ghostly things that have no connection to the physical world whatsoever. How is that not an important difference? I experience my mind, I don't experience a soul. So I'm talking about an empirical difference, too. Your statement is demonstrably false.

As for a "magical essence," I have no idea what that is. Can you explain?

On the second Z: I don't know what, exactly, qualia and other aspects of thought/mind/consciousness are fundamentally. But neither do you...I know you don't because no one does.

Here's what we know: qualia are subjective, whereas matter is not. Also, consciousness is intentional, whereas matter is not. We don't have to know what it is in order to know what it's not. Either all matter is really mind/mental--which sounds a lot more like "magical essence" than anything I'm saying--or mind is not matter.

I don't believe in the im/non-material because:
A} We don't have anything close to complete understanding of the material.
B} The single, limited, thing we know about the immaterial is that so far it has proven, every time, to be totally unnecessary to explain anything.
C} We don't have even a hint of a whisper of a hope of a wish of a way to test/measure or even glimpse anything im/non-material.

We don't have measure/test/glimpse "the immaterial" in order to see that mind and its contents are immaterial. Take meaning. You say it's not inherent in matter. So then where is it? If you say it's in my brain, then it's in matter and meaning is material. My brain is part of the environment, and its contents represent real, material things. Therefore, when I detect meaning, and meaning HAS to be material (according to you), then me detecting meaning in the world is no different from me detecting light in the world, and therefore meaning is inherent in material things! The only other possibility is that meaning is an illusion and everything we understand about the world--including the scientific world view that informs us that minds are produced by brains--is just a dream. Your view would turn all of reality into something as real as "magical essence."

Or, you could admit that the contents of mental states are not material. The meaning of this sentence isn't in the atoms of these glowing letters, nor in the neurons in your brain. There is nothing about the firing of electric currents that mean particular concepts. You could remove from my brain the particular neurons that are firing when I understand this sentence, and nothing about that sequence of electrical current will tell you anything at all about the meaning of this sentence. The meaning is in the conscious understanding, not in the electricity.

Meaning is immaterial, whether you think "it's all in our heads" or (as I think) it is a property of the universe or even of Being itself. For something to be explicable means that it can be understood. The condition of understanding/comprehending is not a physical state (even though a brain state makes it possible). It takes us out of our brains, forming a connection with everything around us, even into the nature of galaxies 13 billion light years away. There is no way that this can be a physical connection. Understanding the meaning of what we're seeing in these fuzzy patches of light is something over and above the photons transferring these images. There is no "comprehendon" particle transferring meaning to our brains. This penetration into the nature of reality is happening in another way.

Prayer [which overlaps but isn't identical to meditations]

All 4 of those things have, in some cases, small but persistent, measurable, and significant positive impacts on health/illness.

But not for everyone. Do you have evidence of prayer working for someone who doesn't believe in prayer? Someone not merely indifferent to it, but adamantly opposed to it as a comprehensive atheist belief system?

I understand that prayer is close to meditation, and such brain states can ease anxiety and speed healing. But what I don't think is likely is that this relaxed brain state is going to be achievable through prayer by someone who is hostile to the idea of prayer. Hostility and calm are mutually exclusive.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

I mislike this thread's framing of the question, inasmuch as it seems to be looking for some sort of justification -- a principled reason -- for prayer. One needs no more justification for a prayerful spirit (regardless of the form of prayer or, further, of whether the prayer is more informal, e.g. contemplative prayer) than one needs to justify any other sphere of human activity, whether science or art or politics or whatnot. Prayer is simply an ineradicably human endeavor.

However, if one really needs some sort of principled reason for prayer, I'd say that such would rest upon the incondign consequences that would follow upon a denial of prayer, e.g. a domineering chessmaster God who determines everything from all eternity; an aloof clockmaker God who absolves himself from the work of his hands; a Prometheanism or Titanism in which man masters or creates himself ex nihilo, as it were; etc.

[wayfriend]

Wos, I don't think peter was seeking a justification for prayer so much as seeking a self-justification for praying when in full knowledge of God's general unwillingness/inability/inadvisability/whatever against interference. That being said, your first point was well made, and your second point makes me want to shelter in place.

[Fist and Faith]

What if I lie there thinking, "I just won't pray, because there's no more reason to think it will cure me than flapping my arms real fast will make me fly."?

On the Fisty:
Well, you'd be mistaken.
The best research I've seen over the years [by which I mean real, blind, replicable] shows:
Placebos
Meditation
Visualizations [which overlap somewhat but aren't identical to meditations]
Prayer [which overlaps but isn't identical to meditations]

All 4 of those things have, in some cases, small but persistent, measurable, and significant positive impacts on health/illness.

Arm-flapping has not made a person fly even once.

I don't believe there's anything magical/soul/god-given or blessing for any of them---when they work, I think, it is LITERALLY states of mind that do it, and those 4 things are just paths/methods/techniques to trigger/enact those states.

Edited to add: And I wan't talking about your family in any real/literal way...I wasn't even talking about you in a real/literal way.

As Z said, it doesn't work for people who think it doesn't work. It's not a dick move to not think it works, or to not be able to change your mindset and think it works. For all the similarities people have, not everyone is the same in every way. The person with arachnophobia might gladly not feel that way. They know, absolutely, it's irrational. They might go through lots of therapy, and get to the point where they can see a spider and not run out of the room screaming. But they might still feel the irrational fear. None of it is a dick move. It's the way someone's mind works.

[peter]

The placebo effect is proof that your mind can manipulate reality.

I thought our entire civilization is proof of that.

My mind alters reality every time it directs my body to take any action. Moving my finger the tiniest bit alters reality. As does taking tools and building a house, or blowing up a dam. It's difficult for my mind to NOT alter reality.

After all - the only reality any of us ever get to experience is our mind - and perhaps not even then, if what is and what seems to be, are in fact totally different.

High Wos! The op resulted from a listening I gave to UK newsreader John Humphreys reading his book In God We doubt - an agnostics take on the 'God debate' currently amove down at the popular end of the non-fiction market. Less sure of itself than Dawkins' God Delusion (of which I think it is rightly somewhat scathing), the book nevertheless raises questions that all agnostic thinkers would likely confront at some point, if their thinking on the subject is toward the end of actually settling the question satisfactorily within themselves of where they are finally going to align themselves on the question of belief. I've got to be honest, I personally believe that agnostic position is ultimately the only one that has any credibility........ but it does not satisfy me insofar as I'd like to have some closure on the subject. My belief or otherwise s a slippery beast; I can't get hold of it. When I look within myself and ask "what does my gut tell me; do I feel at a core level within me that there is, or isn't a God" the answer is I don't know; and not whether there is or isn't a God - rather I don't know what I feel. Perhaps because of this I need to think through the conundrums such as in the op to help me get a handle on it. Or something.....

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

[...]

High Wos!

Yo.

[Skyweir]

No one petitions God because they think they are informing Him. They petition God to grovel. God won't intervene until you prostrate yourself enough.

As I said: worthiness. You plead your worthiness to God, and if you are found to be so, he answers your prayer. If he doesn't, well, that's on you.

If it sounds harsh, well, as I said, this is seeking hope where no hope can be found. You've tried the less harsh things already. Or there are none.

I have heard the "faith is everything" angle before. What follows is that practicing religion is the only way to attain faith. And that only through someone's ministry can you practice religion correctly. What it really adds up to is "submission is everything". I don't like it, and I don't believe it.

This resonates with me .. the supplication part especially as it aligns with worthiness.

I see good faithful giving people whos children die of long battles with cancer, I see one the loveliest of humans that give so much kindness in love and action dying young and leaving motherless and fatherless children behind. Is it really, truly worthiness that distinguishes the intervention of god or gods?

Ive seen the most detestable humans get away with horrendous crimes and harms against others. Where is the intervention on behalf of the victims? Of the innocent? Particularly where those victims were children!

I think worthiness cannot be the standard upon which a god or gods decide upon intervention .. or even blessings.

I have to go feed horses but will pop back later to read the last page .. this has indeed been an enjoyable discussion to date.