Kevin's Watch

The late Conservative politician Enoch Powell [not a man noted for his sunny disposition at the best of times] was once asked the above question in interview and his reply has stuck with me ever since, "I'm as happy as it's healthy to be." Though I've only read the work in translation - and as we know much meaning can be lost or obfuscated thereby - something similar in sentiment seemed to be put forward in The Rubyat of Omar Kyam where the narrator expressed the view that it was suffering that was the human 'default' condition, and that one should enjoy the brief periods of happiness one was granted as gifts to be savoured, but always in the understanding that they would not last. Even the American Declaration of our inalienable rights only allows us to pursue happiness - it is not our right to actually be happy.

So while I have framed my thread title in the way I have as a catchy way to draw you in, in reality I don't want you to answer it [though please do so if you feel so inclined]; what I'm interested in is the points raised above - can we expect to be, indeed do we have a right to expect to be happy - and is it indeed the case that happiness is a chimera [say a simple absence of suffering] and that the human default condition is something other, perhaps closer to a depth of suffering from which we all have the right to attempt to swim up for an occasional but fleeting gasp of 'happiness'?

After getting to know people suffering with depression, bi-polar and other issues "happy" is a different concept or experience for them.
So many different types of happy too.
And it's different for each individual at each moment in their life as well.

I'm always happy, btw.
It usually pisses people off, they think I don't care about things.

It's always darkest before it turns absolutely black.

It's the pursuit, the striving, that makes us happy. Happiness isn't a destination; it's the road.

I am frequently content. I am often pleased. But true happiness, that kick your heels and punch the sky kind of feeling, happens infrequently.

[Edit] For me, it's not the destination. And it's not the road either. It's the unexpected treasures found along the way.

[Edit]

High Lord Tolkien wrote:After getting to know people suffering with depression, bi-polar and other issues "happy" is a different concept or experience for them.
So many different types of happy too.

Almost entirely/exactly that.
[[and the almost is only because SOME of the happies are the same...so it's just a quibble.]]
Fun fact---short happy's are good, and probably all that one can get IN THE MOMENT. Hindsight---perhaps different [but half fantasy---cuz nostalgia]
I've had lots of short happy.
On the flip side, I've uncommonly gotten through a whole day, and never in nearly fifty years a whole week, without what they like to call "suicidal ideation."
Medications didn't reduce it...only made it less scary in a bad way. [[As in "It'll be EASY to do in this state, cuz I don't really give a shit about anything]].

Interesting set of answers!

(Felt sure I'd asked this question before as soon as I posted and felt a bit silly; gratitude for humouring me! )

I think that for me (and I accept the qualifier of there being many kinds of happiness, so the following applies to me alone perhaps) happiness is constituted by it's absences - absence of fear and suffering (physical and mental) and it's presences - presence of sufficiency in terms of one's emotional and physical needs being met (and to make it pure, we'd add a little Wayfriend's serendipity as icing on the cake).

Defined in those terms I have rarely ever experienced it. I remember walking down the street at eighteen years old (and that's a long time ago folks) - I was heading to some friends who lived on the other side of town, I had some great hash in my pocket, the sun was shining down and I was the welcome wherever I went, no matter which of the various groups of people I chose in my town, and of a sudden I thought "My god, life I great! Surely it can't always be like this?" Of course I was right, it wasn't - but for a brief moment I was there!

Now my ideals and expectations were of a different order in those days - clearly one grows as one gets older and what "does it" for you at eighteen won't work when you're eighty - but the sense of 'contentment plus' of happiness will I think be the same .... if illusory nevertheless.

Didn't some philosopher once say something of the order of 'let no man consider himself to be happy in life until he is at the leaving of it' or something to this effect? What did he mean by that? Not simply that life must be seen as a whole before a judgement of happiness can be made I think.

I'm usually pretty happy.

The problem comes in when people think they can or should always be happy.

It's not possible to sustain any emotion indefinitely.

When I'm not happy, I don't worry about it. It too will be transient.

--A

wayfriend wrote:I am frequently content. I am often pleased. But true happiness, that kick your heels and punch the sky kind of feeling, happens infrequently.

[Edit] For me, it's not the destination. And it's not the road either. It's the unexpected treasures found along the way.

exactly....

Avatar wrote:I'm usually pretty happy.

The problem comes in when people think they can or should always be happy.

It's not possible to sustain any emotion indefinitely.

When I'm not happy, I don't worry about it. It too will be transient.

--A

and exactly.


I used to stew over this very thing. what's wrong with me? why can't I be happy? do I not know HOW to be happy?

but I know happiness when it hits me. and as I've gotten older it occurred to me that it's just not a sustainable thing and I should just appreciate it when it happens. I have irritable phases, where everything just annoys the shit out of me, for extended periods...that bothers me and makes me think there is something wrong down deep that i'm not dealing with and it's during *those* periods that I worry that I don't know how to be happy.
and then THAT passes too. lol.

Wow first brilliant question Pete .. I have to say this is indeed an intriguing concept, topic AND notion.

Totally love all of your comments. Outstanding insight HLT and brilliant point about mental health challenges to the esoteric notion .. happiness.

Thats is a key issue in maybe ones .. lets call it happiness capability.

I agree with Fisty that happiness is not a destination.. but the road or journey. But also acknowledge that for some it is neither.

I love Wayfriend experience that happiness is also the little treasures along the way.

I will answer the question, you posed but do not seek answer to. For me I am a very happy and content human .. and for me my happiness does not arise from a lack of suffering. Though pain, disappointment, grief and sorrows play more of a punctuating role in my happiness journey.

I say this having experienced much loss, great difficulties and many challenges in my life .. that could indeed make happiness an improbability for some.

I think this makes me most fortunate indeed.

Now my husband has lived with clinical depression his whole life, he served in the military, ran a small business, studied law to improve his circumstances and ended up in a high pressure government job dealing with all manner of difficulties.

Not ideal pathways for a man in a constant state of depression. Nevertheless, despite his journey and his depression which indeed include the constant presence of suicidal ideation, as V noted in his response ... he is remarkably resilient as a human.

All who know him genuinely love him or like him. He radiates a warmth and welcoming vibe even when the last thing he wants is human company and interaction.

I dont fully understand depressive illnesses or what it would be to live with bi polar etc. I am glad those things are not part of my life journey. I might not possess the resilience of many that do.

But the core of your examination Pete is .. is happiness merely respite from suffering? I guess for some that suffer significantly.. it is.

For others its a treasure unearthed on lifes journeys. For some its not a feeling at all, for others its a state of mind.

But whatever it is for each individual it is in some nations it is a codified right to pursue.

I personally cannot see how happiness is evenly a remotely possible a lawful right, meaning its pursuit. But I can understand that it is a nod to its individual pursuit. And an acknowledgment that humans will think, and act in such ways that enable their happiness.

Its likely also a reaffirmation that slavery and other forms of abuses, even some servitudes diminish a person's pursuit of happiness and other freedoms.

John Stuart Mill acknowledged the pursuit of happiness as basic to humanity ... as Bacon and hundreds of philosophical thinkers that preceded them.

A fabulous question Pete ... and I picked up a rather brilliant point that V made .. how easy it would be to self terminate when you really no longer care, no longer have any fucks left to give.

To me thats a point worth expanding on and bringing further insight to. Cos I struggle with that particular concept. I wont say I have never felt that way before .. because I have .. as a child and in my youth.

I think for me, I didnt truly want to end .. I wanted the world to stop and let me get off. Maybe just for a breather. Just for a time to silence the bombardment.. to be still and safe from harm or abuse. I think I wanted merely an escape hatch to open that I could willingly fall through

But not wanting to wax morose .. happiness can indeed seem an illusion .. and that was certainly my perspective.

Now however, my life is filled with so much .. satisfaction. I do not know my old self .. as my new self operates pretty much in a constant state of happiness.. from time to time punctuated with not happinesses

Ironically enough I think not being religious has a great role to play in my current happiness default. oh and retirement... two new found freedoms lol

I am frequently happy.
Then other people become involved
And I stay more or less irritated.
I will be happier when I can retire.

sgt.null wrote:I am frequently happy.
Then other people become involved

Yes!
I read this and almost said "yes" out loud.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

sgt.null wrote:I am frequently happy.
Then other people become involved

Yes!
I read this and almost said "yes" out loud.

Hah. Sometimes, yea.
But quite often I like numbers of people being PRESENT, just not paying attention to ME.

Sky wrote: point that V made .. how easy it would be to self terminate when you really no longer care, no longer have any fucks left to give.

Kind of a sharp turn off that---quite often I've wished I could do a little experiment. Take the people who claim they're rational, remove their emotions from decisions, everyone should be, etc...and have them experience what a fair number of people do on these drugs...what it's REALLY like if your emotions have nothing to do with your thinking. [[some small number of those people probably ARE that way---they're psychopaths]].

More topical:
I often think there are, of course, as has been said above, many flavors/colors of happy...but there are also, only partially overlapping, two different KINDS, fundamentally different even at the physical level.
One kind/family is the basic holistic flow/state of the mind---as an entity, a preset/"normal" state that is a general sense of well-being.

The other is more specific, involves work/activity outside the "ordinary," and the chemistry and origin specific and local in the brain.

I don't KNOW that's the case. But it seems likely. Almost everything else the mind does has aspects that are global, aspects that are local, and flows, connections, short-circuits and disconnections between them.

Isn't there a Peanuts song ("Happiness Is...") that addresses this in a naive but aspirational way?

I fancy to be a scientist / engineer / rational thinker. So, when I'm managing to be reflective, I try to make it into an equation, where >0 = net happy, and <0 = net unhappy. Ridiculous, I know, but it at least acknowledges the complexity and inherent foolishness in objectively assessing a fairly fleeting feeling.

In reality, it isn't objective at all. We are all meat bags spilling over with chemicals and constantly taking in new ones, but also ablaze with sensory inputs, old and new, plus (re)analyzing misremembered old ones. We are a mess. Amidst all that environmental onslaught, we also enjoy id/ego/superego tug of war, and despite that, a lot of us manage to be decent human beings to each other.

All that to say, happiness is subjective, changes on a haphazard basis, and some of us are brimming with it despite what others would see as objective reasons to not he happy at all. Those that experience it should cherish it (so long as it doesn't come at the expense of others - a whole nother dimension we haven't even touched on).

We should all try to teach each other how to try to be happy, despite the fact that it is not the same for everyone, but similar enough that we can all learn something from each other.

/granola-munching

dw

Vraith wrote:I often think there are, of course, as has been said above, many flavors/colors of happy...

Indeed. That's where this topic goes wrong, I feel.

What kind of "happiness" are we talking about here?

I am glad when a long day of work is over. Is that happiness? Or merely relief?

I am glad when I get all my problem reports closed in time to ship the software. Is that happiness? Relief? Or just a sense of accomplishment?

I am glad when a new episode of Game of Thrones is available. Is that happiness? Relief? A sense of accomplishment? Or just excitement?

Things that have made me happy, by my own measure: my daughter saying she loves being at college; winning a 2-day trip to Italy; obtaining a Tyranitar after a long hard grind; chewing up road in a nice car. This is far from everything, but it demonstrates there is not one category of happiness.

Because, if you count "I didn't die today" as happiness, then you and I are not counting the same apples.

It's all about perspective. I'm very rarely unhappy. There is simply too much to be grateful for in this life. Life is wonderful. The universe is wonderful. I'm grateful merely to be a few of the rare atoms who know they are atoms. Think of all the quadrillions of atoms that don't realize this!

And my gratefulness only begins there. I'm grateful to still be healthy, not yet 50, to live in such amazing times, to live in such an amazing country, to find love again after divorce, to find challenges worthy of my intellect, to discover beers I've never tried, to have experiences I've never had, to witness my son become a man, to still have both of my parents alive (ok, that's a mixed blessing, lol).

I know there is true suffering on this planet. I'm not indifferent to it. And if I wanted, there is plenty of shit I could wallow in just in my own life. But I would feel like a hypocrite or an asshole for doing it, when so many millions of others suffer so much more. But I don't let their plight get me down, because--PERSPECTIVE!--things are getting better. We are eliminating extreme poverty on a global scale. This global civilization is climbing its way to the stars, and we're all here to witness it.

Do I have a right to be happy? I don't know. But I don't think I have any right to be unhappy. That's for sure.

wayfriend wrote: obtaining a Tyranitar after a long hard grind; .

I had to look this one up.

wayfriend wrote:Because, if you count "I didn't die today" as happiness, then you and I are not counting the same apples.

I enjoy the 'didn't die today" type happiness too though.

It's more of a whole life reflection or review kind of feeling.
I don't believe in god or heaven or an afterlife so I know that each moment I get to interact with my kids or get to play with my dog is special.
Every day I don't die makes me happy because when it's gone it's gone.


I also know that for too many the opposite is true.
Death is a release from unhappiness.

Zarathustra wrote:It's all about perspective.

Man...almost all of what you say after this is true. Factually, demonstrably, true.
In fact, I'm "happy" about nearly all the things you mentioned, and a lot more.
I'm optimistic about humanity as a whole, despite local and temporary horrors here and around the world.

That happy shit IS my fucking perspective--at least equal to yours.
I literally want to live forever, in that perspective. [look at/recall the Loresraat if you doubt that]

I LOVE my damn wife, and I'm HAPPY every morning when we wake up and have our first coffee, and every damn time we see each other after work.
I'm happy when we watch the molded shit salad soap opera she dvr's every day, even though it's silly/stupid in all its stories/writing, it's staging and cinematography is fucking laughable--a pure demonstration of what NOT to do if you want to actually be an artist, or even a crafter.
[[and SHE's not an idiot about it, she knows full well how crappy it is]]

But it is NOT all about perspective.

I disagree with you all over damn place---but you don't say much that is naive or trite.
That is both, and more.

If all you say does make you happy...that is totally fucking cool...I'm happy that you're happy...seriously, honestly, really.

But perspective is neither the cause, nor cure, nor even correlated [[[though for a certain segment, with certain kinds of particular/discrete
and knowable causes, [[most short-term, and common to almost everyone]] with specific/personalized actions to change perspectives are OCCASIONALLY successful. [occasionally meaning more effective than that bullshit 12step myth, but still far more failure than success]

But it ain't all about perspective...it is BARELY about perspective.

[[[snarky hard but true shit deleted cuz we're being nice around here]]]

You say it's not about perspective, but you don't say why or what it is about?

I think it's about perspective too. Not that terrible things don't happen, or that perspective isn't difficult (if not well nigh impossible) to change, but that surely doesn't alter the fact that your perspective (the way you perceive things) is what underlies your world-view etc.

--A