Zarathustra wrote:Why are you talking about velocity? No one has suggested that the objects in question travel anywhere near c.
Are you sure? I haven't read through the whole thread in some days now, but I'm pretty sure I remember this being alluded to. I freely admit I could be wrong there though.
Now... just because somebody hasn't mentioned something yet doesn't mean it's not worth mentioning. The reason I mention velocity is because it is the result of calculating how far an object travels over a period of time. If you're discussing space travel with your friends and nobody mentions velocity it's time to put the joint down.
Zarathustra wrote:They seem to have propulsion systems that are beyond any human technology, but this doesn't necessarily mean anything that you've argued against above.
Please specify the theorised nature of these propulsion systems and the physical principles they operate on... Otherwise there's not even a theory there. I would also like to know of any new fundamental particles and forces of nature you wish to invoke in order to flesh out such a theory.
If you don't have a theory then all you've got is an inadequately researched notion that there's something going on you don't understand.
Zarathustra wrote:Are you assuming that alien life must be very far away...
The alien life on other planets orbiting other stars, light years away? Yes. Yes I am. If you want to disagree with that then there aren't enough joints in the world mister.
Zarathustra wrote:...and to get here quickly it must have traveled very fast? I'm trying to understand your non sequitur reasoning here, so I'm just guessing . . . but none of those assumptions are necessary.
Non-sequitir reasoning? All I have done so far is explained the difficulties in accelerating mass/energy to relativistic velocites, outlined the unsuitablity of the EPR paradox for transportation and pointed out some of the problems of space travel via wormhole... during a conversation about space travel. What the hell is your problem with that?
I'm sorry if my doing so poses practical problems for space travel that offend your sensibilities. Breathe into your paper bag. Pick the joint back up if you have to. Try to relax.
Zarathustra wrote:No one has suggested that there are actual alien beings in the vehicles.
1) You did, earlier in your post.
2) Read through the entire thread. People definitely mention extraterrestrials.
Zarathustra wrote:Maybe they are probes, without occupants.
Maybe they are. However, unless you'd like to specify an object that you think fits these criteria then once again, it's not a theory based on evidence. A vague sentiment that the lights someone saw in the sky are a visitor from outer space are not a theory. Be more specific.
Zarathustra wrote:Either way, there's nothing about the speed of light or wormholes or whatever that would preclude actual occupants in the vehicles.
Yes there is. If they possess mass there are many things that preclude occupants being in a craft travelling at relativistic velocities. If you believe you can traverse the black hole singularity at the heart of a wormhole or if you don't understand the effects of relativistic velocities upon mass, or even what mass is... then you simply have NO idea what you are talking about here.
Zarathustra wrote:Maybe aliens have learned how to reverse aging, and very long space trips are not a big deal to them. (Or other possibilities that don't really matter to the basic premise here. There are most likely civilizations in the galaxy older than our solar system . . . time isn't really the issue here, so there's no need to talk about velocities that decrease the amount of it.)
Maybe they have. Now show me your aliens that have harnessed powers beyond our comprehension. Tell me how long they have travelled across space and time for. Tell me how old they are. Read to me their message to all humans from the robotic probe/alien being now they have committed this massive technological feat. Tell me of the trajectory these probes follow if there is no message. Then show me how all the scientists and astronomers in the world have kept this a secret all this time.
Go on, be specific. Give concrete evidence. Show me your research. Show me the aliens. Tell me where their home world is. At least give me a plausible theory with an example.
Zarathustra wrote:We are being presented with anomalous evidence. No one knows what the evidence means--or doesn't mean.
What evidence? You have not cited a single piece of anything that qualifies as evidence. Show me your evidence.
Zarathustra wrote:It is sheer arrogance and/or ignorance to dismiss the possibility of alien technology based on nothing more than an irrelevant physics lecture that seems to have more to do with making you look smart than making a substantive response to the point of this thread.
Look at you, all bent out of shape.
Where do I begin? In a conversation about space travel, someone discusses EPR teleportation, wormholes and relativistic travel it's not a substantive response?
Why? Because it contains things you don't like? Things you don't want to understand?
And what of your arrogance? It is the absolute height of arrogance for you to dismiss the laws of reality because you do not approve of them.
Ignorance? You stand upon the very pinnacle of ignorance when you dismiss the work of scientists who spent centuries building the world you live in. A world you have the freedom not to examine in an objective manner simply because you have made your choice not to understand it.
As for your attempt at personal deflection... please be so kind as to not try pinning your lack of knowledge on this subject on me. It's your fault, not mine.
For my part, I couldn't care less about who's clever and who isn't. You either want objective reality and truth or you don't. The point of knowledge is learning, not gloating. Your accusations speak far more about your attitude towards knowledge than they do about mine.
Zarathustra wrote:There is absolutely no justification within your reasoning for such incredulous certainty.
Thus spake Zarathustra eh? There is no justification for a single thing you have written. You have no evidence to support anything you have said, you don't have any idea what you are talking about on this subject and you clearly have no idea how to construct a logical argument.
Show me your evidence. I can back up anything you like from my post, and am willing to stand corrected if any of my descriptions of those phenomena are wrong.
Your post reminds me of a biblical fundamentalist being confronted with some pesky dinosaur bones.
We are engaged in two different conversations. Until you present some facts and calm yourself down this state of affairs is unlikely to change.