Kevin's Watch

We know that Pietten and Llaura were affected by the ur-vile loremaster in LFB, and that Pietten afterwards licked blood and liked it. So, it's a matter of record that he was 'wronged.' So, in TPTP, do you think he was in control of his actions when he

Spoiler

betrayed the Ramen by exposing all their coverts, and then attacked Lena and Covenant with the intention of taking the white gold?

Or, do you think that he was really a puppet of Foul's making, without volition? We know that the Despiser greatly enjoyed setting people up to make decisions that backfired horribly upon them and the Land, so the question is this: was Pietten responsible for his actions as an adult?

DW
[Weird, warped, and wigging out!]

He was insane... You can't control your actions when your insane...

Yes, he wasn't being controlled by a raver and wasn't dead. That means he still had a choice in what he did, but like most victems of Foul's manipulation (Kevin, for example) he believed that he didn't have a choice in what he did. Clearly he was screwed up by whatever Foul did to him, but that wasn't all there was to him. It was just one more step along the path to despair. I think other characters in the series have proven that just because Foul takes you to the brink of despair doesn't mean you have to give in; Pietten was just one to succumb.

No... He was mad... so have can he be responsible for his actions?

OK, in LFB we can see that he was an innocent that was harmed. But the way he is presented in TPTP, we aren't given any reason to understand why he chose the way he did, or to like him at all.

I sympathized with Elena, though she was flawed from birth, because she truly thought she was doing the right thing, and her actions were always (at least superficially) in defense of the Land.
I cannot imagine that Pietten didn't know that what he was doing was wrong, at least on some level, and I can't think of a way for a sane human to think that Pietten was doing was the right thing. This is why I tend to believe that he was compelled to do what he did by the ur-vile taint, which means he didn't fall into the Despiser's sweet-spot, of knowingly destroying the thing that he loved, by his own choice.

So, did the author choose not to allow us to empathize with Pietten the adult? Or was it his way of saying that not everyone is meant for redemption? Or am I over-analyzing a tiny bit ?

DW
[Weird, warped, and well-meaning]

Seems to me though his life was deliberately warped by Foul, Pietten was still free to choose. He also at times seemed to know all too well that what he was doing was wrong even though that realization was filtered through the bitterness he allowed to shape his attitudes and thoughts. In the end he was mad and was destined to walk the path that Foul had laid for him. Though I don't disagree with his choice Foamfollower was Pietten's last hope and it just wasn't to be.

Foul's greatest achievements are always brought about by giving his victims a choice. Just like trying to get the ring, I think he has to. It's written down in the Despisers' Handbook.

Foamfollower had a choice to use the hurtloam on the kid, but he chose to assuage his own guilt instead. The Ramen knew he was messed up from day one, but they still chose to keep him around. At first in pity, and then later in a misplaced sense of looking out for one's own, or maybe even something like pride, respect, and fear combined. Pietten had a choice to shape his own destiny instead of being Foul's pawn.

Pietten was perverted from the bright little Woodhelvin kid that he should've been. It's horrible, and it's not something that just goes away with age. Even if it has fantastical elements, it's still child abuse. It messes you up, and it stays with you for life. However, that doesn't make it ok for you to perpetuate that abuse, even if it happens frequently in those circumstances. Again, I'm remidned of Tool's "Prison Sex."

Even if he had a lot of help, Pietten was ultimately responsible for his actions.

I've always believed that some people are born "bad." I don't think there is any proven scientific explanation for it, but some people are simply genetically messed up--they enjoy spreading their evil will across mankind. Depending on their social environment these people could evolve into anything from habitual liars to mass murderers. Despite the best efforts of parents, family and friends, these people just won't conform to the norms of any civilised society.

If SRD portrayed Pietten as a "bad seed", then I could almost excuse his actions. Unfortunately he was once a good kid living in a peaceful environment. No matter what was done to Pietten as a child by an Ur-Vile or Foul, doesn't rid him of his freedom to choose as an adult. It's easy to pity him, but Pietten was an earth-loving, peaceful boy before Foul tainted him. Instead of choosing the easy road--harboring rage and bitterness-- he could have fought the despair and chosen the struggle to regain his previous life.

I pity Pietten. It doesn't seem fair that such a pure child should be used by such an evil figure as Foul. Touched, tainted and abused as he was, Pietten still had the ability to choose his path. Foul simply made his choice easier.

Pietten was a pawn, but not Lord Foul's pawn. Instead he was the helpless pawn of Donaldson, who decreed how he should live and die. Other than that, I think he pretty much had free will.

Caer Sylvanus wrote:Foul's greatest achievements are always brought about by giving his victims a choice. Just like trying to get the ring, I think he has to. It's written down in the Despisers' Handbook.

LOL! I want a copy of the Despiser's Handbook....is it illustrated?

Caer Sylvanus wrote:However, that doesn't make it ok for you to perpetuate that abuse, even if it happens frequently in those circumstances. Again, I'm remidned of Tool's "Prison Sex."

I read those lyrics.... tiny bit disturbing, yes? For the love of God, man, don't drop the soap!!!
DW
[Weird, warped, and so never doing anything illegal again]

I want a copy of the Despiser's Handbook....is it illustrated?

muahahahaha!!! .....yes, that was my funnybone you struck.

As for Pietten...I tend to agree with the person who said he was insane and therefore not responsible for his actions. Pitiable, assuredly - but not blamable in my thinking. The blame rests solely with those who made him a nutburger.

-Michelle

He was set on his path by Foul, and twisted to serve Foul's ends.

He loved the ranyhyn and he honestly believed he had their best interests at heart. He knew that TC had bound them to serve him and hated the danger that he subjected them to, but he didn't realize that if the ranyhyn feared TC, they hated Foul. The mark that Foul's minions left on Pietten made him hate TC beyond reason.

I guess I forgot about the complexities around and within Pietten. Thanks to all for reminding me.

Taking into consideration his love for the Ranyhyn, and the fact that Foamfollower chose not to use the last bit of hurtloam on him, in favor of using it on Foul's creatures to assuage his own guilt. With these facts, we are left with a much more complex and tragic situation.

But my original question still remains... let me restate it and expound.

Was Pietten in control of his actions when he performed his nastier acts? What was his motivation, and why did his success hinge on killing Covenant and company?

DW
[Weird, warped, and wanting to know because of an Enquiring mind]

My 2 cents:

He was in control, and he had been corrupted by Foul. His success hinged on their death beacause no living person would let him take the White Gold, aka his mission.

5 years later!!!

Pietten is a character that makes my heart leap...

...but only because of what SRD could have done with him, not what he became.

I always wished Triock's role in PTP was given to Pietten, I think it would have been so much more interesting.

In response to Tulizar, we never actually were given any understanding of Pietten's personality before what Foul did to him. He could well have been a 'bad seed' for all we know. But it seems that people like that, 'bad seeds' or whatever, just don't exist in the Land, everyone is pure and tolerant and all that, unless under the influence of Fangthane.

We know Pietten was touched by Foul, after wittnessing the terrible distruction of his home and all his childhood friends, parents and possibly siblings. He'd have been messed up without being given that treatment by Foul.

I suppose I always considered Pietten as still under Fangthane's curse, and not really having much choice... And given that I don't think even the Hurtloam would've helped him much..

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:5 always wished Triock's role in PTP was given to Pietten, I think it would have been so much more interesting.

I dunno about this - Pietten had no real reason to hate Covenant, and he had no tie to Covenant's rape of Lena. Triock's presence in The Power that Preserves is as much about how Covenant is affected as it is about Triock himself.

Pietten absolutely hated Cov, that's why he tried to kill him. He hated him because he caused Burning Woodhelven, caused Foul to mess with his head, caused the Ranyhyn to stay in the plains, even through the evils of the 40 years between IW and PTP.

Pietten hates Cov, but if he loves the Ranyhyn, maybe he could have fought against his hate, like Triock, to help save the Ranyhyn.

I guess too, SRD seemed to use Pietten, not as a person, but as a "theme delivery system", a way to make what the Ranyhyn chose, and therefore the weight of promises and Vows (Christian concept), have consequence. Which makes sense, but is very blatantly obvious. Like Trell, Pietten is far too simple and one-dimensional for me.

It's also somewhat redundant. The weight of vows in the Land is espoused in Sarangrave in IW. Does SRD really need to remind us through a one-time appearance and death in PTP?