The Wheel of Time

[Avatar]

Well, it's finally here. After all the years and all the empty claims and promises, we have a Wheel of Time series.

So, having watched the first 3 episodes, my verdict so far is...meh.

I didn't hate it. Inevitably, (especially with a series so huge) there are going to be narrative...compromises...

As I mentioned on the discord, I was surprised (but probably shouldn't have been) by how diverse Emonds field was made, since in the books, most areas are pretty homogenous (perhaps as a result of the Breaking).

I was annoyed by a few of the narrative choices, and that the trend of all action happening very quickly in the dark (so choreography and makeup don't have to be of a high standard) is being continued. (Thanks GoT...)

The Trollocs did not look great.

I'm also a bit concerned about the pacing, it's actually going pretty slowly given it took them 3 episodes to reach (what should have been) Baerlon, although I suppose they compensated by having Shadar Logoth happen much sooner than in the book.

Wonder where they're going to stop this one...if it's 1 season per book, things will have to speed up (or a lot more be cut) to reach the Eye of the World in this season.

Still...could have been worse, but will withhold judgement for now...could still get much worse....

--A

[I'm Murrin]

It's alright so far. The cast are decent enough, at least. It's hard to really tell what it's going to be like; at this point it might stick relatively close to the books or it might veer off wildly and I can't say which is more likely from these episodes. (Though a straight adaptation of the series would be very hard given how interminably long it was.)

Perhaps just because I watched it recently I found myself comparing it to Netflix's Shadow and Bone, another recent adaptation of a fantasy series; so far I like the other show better.

[Zarathustra]

I never made it past a few chapters of the first book. Thought it was pretty generic. After watching the first episode, I'm wondering, were all the people in this tiny, remote village supposed to look like the bridge crew of the Enterprise? I mean, they look like they come from 5 different continents, not the same village. I get the impression from the terrain that it's a pretty remote village. How can they have this much genetic diversity? Is that from the book? Is there a reason why these people look African, Irish, Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, European, etc? Or is it just modern wokism, an attempt to make everybody in the audience feel included (in a story that's not about them)? Diversity for the sake of diversity, instead of story? It made sense for Star Trek, because they represented a Federation, but it makes no sense for these people . . . unless I'm missing something.

[I'm Murrin]

I expect it's largely representation for its own sake, which imo doesn't really detract from anything. There's likely an in-world justification along the lines of them being descended from the remnants of the earlier, much more advanced society that was destroyed in the Breaking, which was apparently vastly more populous (judging by those skyscrapers we saw) and probably more diverse.
In any case, it's a fictional world and therefore doesn't need to have a history of racial segregation and cultural isolation. Plus, people move, particularly in a world with a long history of fallen civilisations due to a constant good-vs-evil conflict. The borderlands in the north, for example, fell to the Dark One's forces in relatively recent memory and their people - like Lan for example - are displaced.

[Zarathustra]

Thanks for the help, Murrin! If it makes sense in terms of the story, then it's actually interesting, something that makes me wonder and look for the answer. Your explanation is fascinating--evidence that the world has been this disrupted. However, the alternative just pulls me out of the story. It would be like Frodo having a black hobbit sidekick, instead of Sam, for no reason whatsoever. I hate it when we impose modern values upon stories that are from a different world or time. I've encountered the same thing in Foundation. For some reason, the casting directors turned Salvor Harden (a man) into black woman, and Gaal Dornick (a man) into a black woman. These are conscious choices that have nothing to do with making the story better, but instead fulfilling some social justice agenda in *our* world. As such, it pulls me out of the story.

I have no problem watching or reading stories about black women. The Good Fight is an awesome show about a black law firm. Beloved was an amazing novel. But we wouldn't cast a bunch of white or Chinese people in a screen version of Beloved, just for the sake of diversity. We'd honor the author's intentions. But that never happens the other direction.

[dlbpharmd]

I'm on episode 3 and it's OK so far. I haven't read the books; the sheer volume of this series has been daunting. If I like the show after the first season, I may start with the audiobooks.

[Avatar]

Didn't really enjoy E04 all that much, basically none of it happened in the book. I understand they were trying to use it to stand in for a bunch of exposition, but it was still a bit annoying.

For what it's worth, the GF (who has not read the books) is enjoying it for the most part.

As for the diversity, while it could be justified in-story, (and does not particularly bother me), the fact is that the reverse is true in the books...all the locations / nations / groups / whatever are specifically homogenous.

As Murrin said, it's for its own sake, but again, I don't really care enough for it to affect my opinion of the series at this stage.

@Z, fair warning if you go for the books, (I'm re-reading them myself right now) 7-10 get progressively worse as Jordan sorta lost the plot. 10 is execrable. 11 however gets the series back on track and Sanderson did a good job finishing them off after Jordan died.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Yeah, I've been thinking about giving the books a try. I'm currently rereading Foundation, but amazed at how bad the writing is, so I might drop that.

I did read the Wikipedia article on this series, so I know that fans weren't happy with additional characters that built up the world but slowed the pace and left the main characters behind. Martin did the same thing with his series. I'm not a fast reader, so I'll let you know what I think in a couple years.

And again, I'm not bothered by a diverse cast. That's part of the fun of fantasy novels, the wide range of characters and races we encounter. But I do like them to make sense and not just be thrown together to check off boxes on a PC checklist.

[Avatar]

LOL The GF has been reading Foundation in conjunction with the series as well, although she has not commented on the writing, but rather on the differences between the books and the series. (Personally I could never get into the Foundation books, although 20+ years later I can't remember what I didn't like about them.) I just had to buy her 2 of them, since I mistakenly thought I had them all only to find I only owned the first and last. ) (20+ years y'know..)

As for WoT (I just started book 4) it did start to bloat, but that wasn't the real problem (I like huge complicated worlds) it was more that it got dull, and you'd have 800-900+ page books where nothing happened at all. (I'm looking at you book 9 & 10.)

He came to his senses eventually, and started closing off plot-lines in book 11, almost too quickly in some cases (or would have been if they hadn't been dragging out for books and books with no progress).

And as for reading speed, well, being fast has its drawbacks too. No rush, will be waiting to hear what you think.

(I can't decide if I should recommend starting with the prequel or not...I do these days, but for a first read, it might be better to read it after book 1 rather than before.)

--A

[I'm Murrin]

I'm having a hard time evaluating the series as its own thing so far; my mind is constantly thinking about the ways it differs from the books and wondering where they're going to go with it.

The latest episode takes a big departure; they've seemingly skipped a significant chunk of The Eye of the World and gone on to something that never happened in the books - them all arriving in Tar Valon. My memory of the books is a little hazy, but I think the first time any of the Two Rivers characters went there might not have been until book 10 or 11, though some small bits with other characters occured there along the way.

[Avatar]

And...I think that probably marks the end of my dalliance with the series.

Episode 5 was the worst yet.

To be fair, your recollection is off Murrin. Egwene and Nynaeve do go to Tar Valon at the beginning of Book 2 to begin novice training. (Matt goes there to be healed of the influence of the dagger from Shadar Logoth after recovering it (and the Horn of Valere) at the end of Book 2.)

But yes, they've basically left out 3/4 of Book 1 and most of book 2 as well now. And my gods...Loial was done badly. So badly.

I wonder if the Eye (or the Horn) will figure at all now, or if they will jump back again...I suppose this was inevitable...the series is too big. (Also it's feeling a bit low budget to be honest, which is a shame.)

I'm on book 4 in my re-read, so rapidly outstripping this, and am enjoying it, although partly because I know exactly where the boring bits are now and can just skim them. (Having read most of them at least 10 times since they started coming out. )

--A

[I'm Murrin]

I've started rereading The Eye of the World myself, and I'm beginning to appreciate that adapting this book into only 8 episodes was an impossible task to begin with. I think they're doing their best, although there are places I'd wish they kept a bit more of the book instead of replcing it with new stuff.

What is odd is that they have an enormous budget but it isn't really showing up on screen so far.

[Avatar]

True enough, but I mean...2 episodes for intro and Emonds field, (a scene with the death of Lews Therin would have been nice (even one of the bad pilots got that in)), 3 for the flight to Caemlyn (with Shadar Logoth in the middle, leaving room for Elyas and the Tinkers after that), 1 for Caemlyn itself (and Elayne) ending with entering the Ways, and 2 for Shienar and the Blight.

May have been a bit light on exposition but would cover the main points of book 1 fairly well I think. Better than the made up stuff that they wasted at least 1 and a half episodes (if not a little more) on. And they've spent far too much time on the Whitecloaks too I think.

(And yes, the budget is definitely not showing unfortunately...spent it all on the GoT style intro and the channeling effects no doubt.

--A

[I'm Murrin]

Maybe they just tried to do what GoT did, and spent 80% of their budget on a big action finale.

One of the other things bugging me - in the books, the boys all have a shared dream where they meet [redacted] and he tries to convince them distrust Aes Sedai, and he sometimes looks like he's got fire in his eyes and mouth. In the show, they've taken this pretty revelatory scene (it's the first real encounter with the enemy and what they want) and replaced it with repeated vague flashes of a guy with fire in his face who just jumpscares Rand in his sleep.

[Avatar]

Maybe they just tried to do what GoT did, and spent 80% of their budget on a big action finale.

Which would be pretty suspect itself since almost none of the books have such a scene.

Honestly, the dream thing is one of the least of my quibbles, telling though it is.

With only 3 episodes left, I'm very confused about where they'll take this...the chance of greater divergence from the actual story (even at this early stage) seems higher than ever.

--A

[I'm Murrin]

Episode 6 was pretty good imo. There's a pretty clear path now through the final two episodes for where this is going, though obviously they skipped a ton of the book to get there.

The main issue, I think, when you're not looking it through the lens of changes in adaptation, is that the whole story is very rushed, while somehow also taking time on a couple of filler episodes along the way.

[Avatar]

Meh. I was not that impressed. Most egregiously, the Eye is NOT the site of the Dark One's prison. Nor was I very clear on why they had to go there. Nor is channelling necessary to get into the Ways.

Must say the sets are not doing it for me either...everything feels very cramped in the Tower.

And finally, a small niggle, (although not the only small one), but Rand is wandering around with his bow permanently strung. Clearly they know nothing about archery.

--A

[Damelon]

So sfar I've had no problem with how the series is going, though I think this last episode, 7, was the weakest so far. It seemed like they were rushing to get all the personal issues out in the open.

I like what they've done with Perrin. In the books I thought he was the least interesting of the main characters. He's much more interesting here. Mat, though is a little bit of a disappointment. I read somewhere this week that next season there will be another actor playing him though.

[I'm Murrin]

Yes, the actor playing Mat left the show between episode 6 and 7 (when they shut down for Covid) and they had to work around that when shooting the last two episodes.

[Avatar]

Eh, I don't think I can anymore, although no doubt I will torture myself and the GF by seeing how they get around the whole "The Eye of the World is the Dark One's Prison" thing.

They've effectively stripped out all of the depth and world-building that the size of the books gave scope for, picked a handful of "points" and loosely strung them together.

The more I watch, the more I hate it. (Min, a barmaid in Fal Dara?)

They've turned it into...David Eddings...

--A