Kevin's Watch

Did Covenant perform a kind of dream test in The Power That Preserves? I seem to remember him deciding that if something or other happened he would wake up from the dream.

I don't recall anything like that.

wayfriend wrote:I don't recall anything like that.

There was nothing like wanting to commit suicide and wake up?

wayfriend wrote:I don't recall anything like that.

I found what I was actually thinking of in The Illearth War:

"He had available three easy ways to create a definitive discontinuity: he could destroy his clothes, throw away his penknife- the only thing he had in his pockets- or grow a beard. Then, when he awakened, and found himself clothed, or still possessed of his penknife, or clean-shaven, he would have his proof."

That's the one!

Yes, but events in the Land always managed to return him to his original state prior to his return, so the test was neutralized.

If I remember correctly, that proof actually came into play in the 2nd chronicles with Linden.

[spoiler]She awoke at the end of WGW with the Ring in her hand - which (if I remember correctly) was not the case when she left.[/spoiler]

Events?

Covenant had decided on the beard strategy to discover whether the Land was a dream or was real.

But he didn't follow through. He shaved his beard to show that his commitment to Elena superseded his need to resolve his dream/reality issues.

In [i]The Illearth War[/i] was wrote:"I've made another deal - like the one I made with the Ranyhyn. I'm not trying to prove the Land isn't real any more."

Can you argue that Covenant's decision was actually the Land having a hand in events in order to produce the necessary conditions of his return?

As far as Linden is concerned - you are free to consider it a little bit of magic, or decide that maybe she took Covenant's ring while lying (mostly) unconscious on the stone.

But it doesn't bear on the dream/reality question. This was something that happened on this side of reality, not on the Land side.

In fact, a blow from a Cavewight did restore her to her original physical condition.

In [i]White Gold Wielder[/i] was wrote:Black against the pallor, dried blood marked her skin. [...] A tremor of grief went through him. She, too, had been made to match the physical condition of the body she had left behind in the woods behind Haven Farm.

And, of course, Covenant gets stabbed in the chest by Foul, bring about his own matched condition.

Seeing Lord Foul's "carious" fangs in the fire at the ritual sacrifice in the real world was pretty telling as to the Land's reality.

IrrationalSanity wrote:Yes, but events in the Land always managed to return him to his original state prior to his return, so the test was neutralized.

If I remember correctly, that proof actually came into play in the 2nd chronicles with Linden.

[spoiler]She awoke at the end of WGW with the Ring in her hand - which (if I remember correctly) was not the case when she left.[/spoiler]

wayfriend wrote:Events?

Covenant had decided on the beard strategy to discover whether the Land was a dream or was real.

But he didn't follow through. He shaved his beard to show that his commitment to Elena superseded his need to resolve his dream/reality issues.

In [i]The Illearth War[/i] was wrote:"I've made another deal - like the one I made with the Ranyhyn. I'm not trying to prove the Land isn't real any more."

Can you argue that Covenant's decision was actually the Land having a hand in events in order to produce the necessary conditions of his return?

As far as Linden is concerned - you are free to consider it a little bit of magic, or decide that maybe she took Covenant's ring while lying (mostly) unconscious on the stone.

But it doesn't bear on the dream/reality question. This was something that happened on this side of reality, not on the Land side.

In fact, a blow from a Cavewight did restore her to her original physical condition.

In [i]White Gold Wielder[/i] was wrote:Black against the pallor, dried blood marked her skin. [...] A tremor of grief went through him. She, too, had been made to match the physical condition of the body she had left behind in the woods behind Haven Farm.

And, of course, Covenant gets stabbed in the chest by Foul, bring about his own matched condition.

He had also been beaten by the Cavewights, which match the bruises he suffered at the hands of the people who invaded his home and took Joan.

About Linden having the ring at the end of WGW - for many years, that was the proof that I held to in my mind that the Land was in fact real. At some point, either in the GI or during one of his in-person interviews, SRD said he regrets writing that ending, but to me it's perfect.

dlbpharmd wrote:

wayfriend wrote:Events?

Covenant had decided on the beard strategy to discover whether the Land was a dream or was real.

But he didn't follow through. He shaved his beard to show that his commitment to Elena superseded his need to resolve his dream/reality issues.

In [i]The Illearth War[/i] was wrote:"I've made another deal - like the one I made with the Ranyhyn. I'm not trying to prove the Land isn't real any more."

Can you argue that Covenant's decision was actually the Land having a hand in events in order to produce the necessary conditions of his return?

As far as Linden is concerned - you are free to consider it a little bit of magic, or decide that maybe she took Covenant's ring while lying (mostly) unconscious on the stone.

But it doesn't bear on the dream/reality question. This was something that happened on this side of reality, not on the Land side.

In fact, a blow from a Cavewight did restore her to her original physical condition.

In [i]White Gold Wielder[/i] was wrote:Black against the pallor, dried blood marked her skin. [...] A tremor of grief went through him. She, too, had been made to match the physical condition of the body she had left behind in the woods behind Haven Farm.

And, of course, Covenant gets stabbed in the chest by Foul, bring about his own matched condition.

He had also been beaten by the Cavewights, which match the bruises he suffered at the hands of the people who invaded his home and took Joan.

About Linden having the ring at the end of WGW - for many years, that was the proof that I held to in my mind that the Land was in fact real. At some point, either in the GI or during one of his in-person interviews, SRD said he regrets writing that ending, but to me it's perfect.

Did he also regret writing about Lord Foul's carious fangs in the bonfire?

Ha! Not to my knowledge.

In [i]The Wounded Land[/i] was wrote:"The outside explanation might be easier to accept. It goes like this. [...] We're unconscious. And while we're unconscious, we're dreaming. We're sharing a dream."

[...] "It's not as farfetched as you think. Deep down in their minds-down where dreams come from-most people have a lot in common. That's why so many of our dreams fall into patterns that other people can recognize.

"It's happening to us. [...] We're sharing a dream. And we're not the only ones. [...] Joan had fragments of the same dream. And that old man-the one you saved. We're all tied into the same unconscious process."

If you accept that much as a premise (and the author asks us to) and you note that no one saw any eyes in any flames except Linden (who is sharing the dream), then you can see that this is not the solid proof that you think it is.

wayfriend wrote:

In [i]The Wounded Land[/i] was wrote:"The outside explanation might be easier to accept. It goes like this. [...] We're unconscious. And while we're unconscious, we're dreaming. We're sharing a dream."

[...] "It's not as farfetched as you think. Deep down in their minds-down where dreams come from-most people have a lot in common. That's why so many of our dreams fall into patterns that other people can recognize.

"It's happening to us. [...] We're sharing a dream. And we're not the only ones. [...] Joan had fragments of the same dream. And that old man-the one you saved. We're all tied into the same unconscious process."

If you accept that much as a premise (and the author asks us to) and you note that no one saw any eyes in any flames except Linden (who is sharing the dream), then you can see that this is not the solid proof that you think it is.

Do you know that nobody else saw eyes in the flames?

thewormoftheworld'send wrote:Do you know that nobody else saw eyes in the flames?

I don't know either way. But that's not the point. The point is that seeing eyes doesn't mean that there are eyes. Not when shared dreams are on the table.