Kevin's Watch

God arises? I really don't understand this title... It natually refers to Holt Fasner... But Does he astually "arise?" In my opinion, he does not... He has already arisen... So why is the book called this? Can someone tell me?

Actually Darth, I'm convinced that the title stems from a reference to vengeance. Somewhere there is an alliteration in classical literature.....calling vengeance a dark and hungry god......but I don't know where!

I started a thread on it in gen discussion a while ago, asking if anyone knew what this reference was, but no one could answer.....that's one of my questions for SRD at Elohimfest.

There's a stage musical; Sweeny Todd, that was on Broadway in the early '80's (starring Angela Lansbury, if you want to know).....there's a main theme in that show....sung several times iirc, and one of the lines is

"Attend the tale of Sweeny Todd
he served a dark and a hungry god..."


And it would make sense for the title of the book, as Ward's plans begin to come to fruition....

Errrgh! It's a mystery

Why does it have to refer to Holt? Why not the Amnion hive uber-god? Why not something else. Btw...birdy I Googled my butt off 4 that a while back..cause the title did sound so familiar-but came up with nothing. Sounds like Shakespeare or something...

So did I... I must have spent a couple of hours trying to hunt it up, with no luck...

I think it is Holt. Consider that, while he has been around and his plans rolling, for us - the readers - his existence becomes known. So he and his plans 'arise' so to speak. Further, it is with the events in the book that Holt's goals grow and his hunger grows too. Never before has a series of events so driven him.

Let's not forget Warden Dios. No one controlled our motley cast of heroes, manipulated, and all-out played the cast as well as he. He filled the role of a god more completely than even Fasner.

This might be a good question for Elohimfest though.




-B

Well who else could the title be relating to? It's gotta be Holt... The terms Dark and Hungry cannot apply to anyone else.

I suspect this is more of a reference to The Ring than to the actual story, but I suspect it means Angus and his new found cyborg abilities. Plus it's him in the cover triangle.

Yeah, I have to admit I though that too the first time I read the book.

Nav wrote:but I suspect it means Angus and his new found cyborg abilities. Plus it's him in the cover triangle.

How was he Hungry? (Not as in nics or food or excrement) But Angus wasn't really arising... That would be Joshua... It's is definitly mean Holt.

I always thought Holt Fasner when I read it. And think of the Satanic references - Hashi refers to Holt as "The great Worm in his lair" and most other people in UMCP seem to call him "The Dragon".

Since SRD used Wagner's Ring cycle of operas as inspiration, look there for answers.

Fafner, in Wagners Ring Operas, is a giant who builds Vahalla with his brother for the gods. Cutting down the story, and plot twists a lot, the giant brothers recieve the Ring from Wotan as payment for building Vahalla. However, there is a curse placed on the Ring by Alberich, the dwarf from whom it was stolen. After the giants gain the Ring, Fafner kills his brother, and changes himself into a Dragon in order to guard the ring. Fafner is later killed by Siegfried.

I knew it was inspired by the Ring cycle from SRD's notes in TRS but I'd never thought of it in the terms you just described.

But the point is that Fanser had already arisen... why does he arise?

Darth Foul wrote:How was he Hungry? (Not as in nics or food or excrement) But Angus wasn't really arising... That would be Joshua... It's is definitly mean Holt.

I disagree, Holt arose decades ago and his position doesn't really begin to be undermined until near the end of Chaos and Order. I suspect the titles are lifted directly from The Ring, and so do not fit the story exactly. Angus (or Joshua, or Angus Ascendent, whatever) still seems like the logical candidate to me.

Nav wrote: Angus (or Joshua, or Angus Ascendent, whatever) still seems like the logical candidate to me.

To an unlogical mind...

I'd just like to inform you... That your wrong people! And I'm right! HAHAHAHAHA! i won! You are beneath me!

heh, he answered my question... and confirmed my theory. It does indeed refer to Holt. so

Keep in mind that in the mythology of the ring, Fasner wasn't a God. He was a threat to the gods, a giant who became a Dragon. The gods all have their Avatars in the UMCP personell.

But then again, Hashi's ending statement, the last words of the gap, seem to call Fasner a god. So... I don't know.

The Dreaming wrote:Keep in mind that in the mythology of the ring, Fasner wasn't a God. He was a threat to the gods, a giant who became a Dragon. The gods all have their Avatars in the UMCP personell.

But then again, Hashi's ending statement, the last words of the gap, seem to call Fasner a god. So... I don't know.

I suspect he was being both metaphorical and poetic

What is this Ring story you are all refering to?

Wagner's ring cycle. I think there's a mention of it in the foreword or afterword in The Real Story.