Kevin's Watch

Here's somethign I never got, maybe someone can clear this up for me:

We hear that Kevin "longed for white gold" to defeat Despite. So: Kevin had the Staff of Law back then, why didn't he just summon some poor schmuck to the Land who had some white gold? Never could figure this little plot hole out ... did I miss something?

Been awhile since I read these books but I would assume Kevin wasn't aware of our world or didn't know the way to reach it.

I have to agree with OD. It really took Foul / Creator summoning TC to open the way to other summons. ie Hile Troy. I have to believe there existed some lore to support such a summoning in the past but apparently it had never been successful. There are those that feel Berek and Covenant are to parts of the same person and that Berek is a previous version of TC. Who knows?

I think that God & Satan worked together on this one like they did with Jobe. In the old testament, there's a story about a righteous man and Satan keeps suggesting that he'll fall if God allows this or that to happen & eventually the guy loses his wife, friends, health, and everything material. But he prevails and God gives him back everything times 7.

So I think the Creator & Lord Foul worked together on this one. We don't know how or if it is even possible, but the simularity seems to be there. At any rate, the door didn't appear to be open until the Creator spoke to Thomas, as if he had the key to allow transfers between the worlds. And I might be mistaken, but I remember reading about Foul criticizing the creator's plans as if he knows about them.

I only read the 2nd chronicles once (the sunbane was just too terrible to me), but I seem to recall that Satan was more able to intervene into our world now that the door was unlocked. I think that unlocking the door at all was a great risk, but God knew that nothing in the Land could stop Foul except for white gold.

Now on white gold, I don't have a clue as to why SRD picked that, but I do find it quite interesting that Kevin even knew about it at all, which suggests that the Creator was able to communicate it somehow into the Land. I think that this is like the Old Testament & the New Testament. In the Old Testament, God walked around on the earth or burned stuff up or spoke to prophets. In the New Testament, it is all based on faith so no one sees God anymore just like in the Land we know where hardly anyone believes in the Creator anymore. He's become a myth.

Enuf of this God and Satan crap they're fantasy constucts.

Based on his experiences, which happened to be Christian at times. Besides, the Bible has some of the most wonderful stories of all. It's hard not to be impacted by the best-selling book of all time.

At any rate, no. I will not stop talking about God simply because you don't believe it. Will you stop talking about evolution simply because I don't believe it? I firmly believe that the Thomas Covenant series is based in part on the Bible. Since it is a spiritual-awakening for me, I will, I must talk about it. My christianity is a part of me. I can't drop it away simply because it makes you uncomfortable in some way. Have some respect.

We don't need another religion debate. If I may speak for him, danlo was referring to the fact that Foul and the Creator are never specifically called Satan or God, and by bringing those two theologically loaded names into the conversation tends to queer it. I think it's great that you can personally draw parallels, but I implore you to keep them in context.

Zeph wrote:I will not stop talking about God simply because you don't believe it.

Where is the world did you ever get that idea? I do believe in God I just don't believe in religion. You don't see me hawking evolution on other threads so that's unfair. Thank u Syl, I should have been more eloquent in expressing my point, I guess. It is a very good point that it takes more than just a High Lord and the SoF to do a successful transworld summoning. However, the way I see it is u have God and Satan (if you believe in Satan...) associated with this world, u could even have God spanning the entire Universe and "other" dimensions that may even house the Land's Planet. But the Creator and Foul hold sway on that world...

Off topic, but it reminds me of a similar question about LOTR: If Galdalf could summon an eagle to rescue Frodo and Sam near the end of ROTK, then why couldn't he simply use the eagle to fly Frodo and the ring into Mordor?

(didn't the ringbearer have to come on his own volition?)

(*sigh* I swear to God...)

Anyway, I agree that Kevin simply didn't know how to summon white gold. Foul told Drool how to do it, but he may have been afraid of putting it in Kevin's hands. Which would be kind of ironic, since there's a chance that, of all people, Kevin would have been the one to destroy the Arch of Time.

I would agree that Kevin probably simply didn't know how to perform the Summons, or perhaps even know that is was possible.
Foul, after all, had a lot of time to think and brood after the RoD...and it was Foul who taught Drool how to do it.
The New Lords stated that the Summons was at the extreme limit of their Lore, and they DID know it was possible, and had the best minds of the Loresraat working on it for oever 40 years...

And, while parts of the Chronicles were obviously inspired by Christianity, Danlo is right in stating that Lord Foul and the Creator are fictional characters. They are not God and Satan, though they were inspired by them, and the Chronicles, while inspired by the Bible, has other influences, too, including the religions of the Indian subcontinent, where Donaldson spent part of his childhood, and there are some very strong echos of Scandinavian mythology.

Bah!

Fine, close your minds to the possibility.

I wonder why SRD didn't just use the names God and Satan, instead of the Creator and Foul.

1. God and Satan are NOT the Creator and Foul .... at least not the Roman Catholic god and satan. The creator is not all-powerful, all knowing (Foul tricked him with banes during creation, he got angry and tossed Foul into the Arch of Time before thinking what he was doing, etc.): he is a lesser deity, reminscent of the demi-urge of Gnostic mythology, imho. Besides, Foul doesn't have a pitchfork or a red elevator.

2. The New Lords DO state that Summoning is at the bleeding edge of their Lore ... meaning the Second Ward or something contained info on doing, which means for Kevin, this was Sophomore level Loresraat stuff. So I still maintain that Kevin could have done it ... even if that makes me a Covenant Geek. So sue me, I'll still wear my pointed Haruchai ears to Elohimfest. Besides, this is all real and really happened.

3. MAYBE the Lords found out that they COULD summon becaused Drooly showed them they could. If there is a decent Donaldson-consistent explanation on this thread it is that Foul and the Creator are two sides of the same coin -- one can't do something without the other. They both have to gamble on something for it to be possible. In this case, the Creator decided it was time to send somebody (Covenant) in to clean things up -- which is what made Summoning possible.

- M

markjeffrey wrote:1. God and Satan are NOT the Creator and Foul .... at least not the Roman Catholic god and satan. The creator is not all-powerful, all knowing (Foul tricked him with banes during creation, he got angry and tossed Foul into the Arch of Time before thinking what he was doing, etc.): he is a lesser deity, reminscent of the demi-urge of Gnostic mythology, imho. Besides, Foul doesn't have a pitchfork or a red elevator.

shhhhhhhhh

markjeffrey wrote:2. The New Lords DO state that Summoning is at the bleeding edge of their Lore ... meaning the Second Ward or something contained info on doing, which means for Kevin, this was Sophomore level Loresraat stuff. So I still maintain that Kevin could have done it ... even if that makes me a Covenant Geek.

It could be that Kevin knew the spell, but needed a target. After Foul got Covenant there, the New Lords had the target to plug into it.

markjeffrey wrote:So sue me, I'll still wear my pointed Haruchai ears to Elohimfest. Besides, this is all real and really happened.

Anybody wearing pointed ears and calling them "Haruchai ears" will certainly lose them, though I'll try not to remove their real ears in the process. (However, if you also have a Captain America shield, it's all cool.)

markjeffrey wrote:3. MAYBE the Lords found out that they COULD summon becaused Drooly showed them they could. If there is a decent Donaldson-consistent explanation on this thread it is that Foul and the Creator are two sides of the same coin -- one can't do something without the other. They both have to gamble on something for it to be possible. In this case, the Creator decided it was time to send somebody (Covenant) in to clean things up -- which is what made Summoning possible.

I'm still unsure of all this. Foul claims that his enemy chose Covenant, and never even hints that he, himself, had any hand in the choosing. I was reminded of this after making a big ol' post about how Foul and Creator both chose Covenant - Foul seeing qualities that he thought would likely make Covenant fall into despair, and the Creator seeing the qualities that would allow Covenant to save the Land and its Earth. But Foul seems to have merely told Drool how to summon the Creator's choice.

1. God and Satan are NOT the Creator and Foul .... at least not the Roman Catholic god and satan. The creator is not all-powerful, all knowing (Foul tricked him with banes during creation, he got angry and tossed Foul into the Arch of Time before thinking what he was doing, etc.): he is a lesser deity, reminscent of the demi-urge of Gnostic mythology, imho. Besides, Foul doesn't have a pitchfork or a red elevator.

Only a superficial reminiscence, I believe. In Gnosticism Rex Mundi (~Foul) is responsible for the material creation, whereas the real God is way above everything that is connected with matter, because he is Pure. But the Land's Creator was deeply involved with the creation of his own world, he only banned himself out from it by imprisoning Foul.
BUT: if you read the legend of A-Jeroth and the Seven Hells, that _is_ very reminiscent of the Gnostic setup. And, by the way (here's one parallel for Zeph) it is very similar to what Sauron said of himself and Morgoth and the Valar when he planted himself in Númenor.

Consider this: while Kevin was High Lord in the Land, Covenant was not yet vulnerable to being summoned to the land. At the time TC may have been anywhere from 2 to 5 year younger, not yet a leper, not yet divorced, not yet bitter; not yet a paradox. Also, Foul and the Creator both agreed on Covenant, which implies that no matter what the depth of Kevin's knowledge was, he couldn't summon anybody because it would not have been permitted by higher powers.

Now on white gold, I don't have a clue as to why SRD picked that, but I do find it quite interesting that Kevin even knew about it at all, which suggests that the Creator was able to communicate it somehow into the Land.

Kevin knew about it because Berek used white gold. Berek begat Damelon begat Loric begat Kevin. It ran in the family. He was trying to live up to the legend of his bloodline and sadly fell dangerously short of the mark. Berek brought Peace to a war-torn Land, Damelon befriended the Giants and ushered in a Golden Age for the Land, Loric created the krill and defeated the Demondim. Kevin had a lot to live up to. Sadly, he couldn't do it, yet everyone in the Land talks more of Kevin than those who went before... except maybe Berek, but that's only because of Covenant's resemblance.

Perhaps Kevin didn't summon white gold to the Land for the same reason that he didn't use the Power of Command - he couldn't accurately predict the outcome. He couldn't know that he himself would not break the AoT. Remember, he was a prophet, but not a seer.

But as to Berek - when did he use white gold? I'm not aware of any such reference.