Did Saddith deserve what she got?
Moderator: Cord Hurn
Did Saddith deserve what she got?
Did she deserved what Lebbick did to her? I don't think she did... she was a nasty slut... no doubt... but she didn't deserve what happened to her. What do you people think?
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duchess of malfi
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Exactly.
There's certainly a lot to ask/say/discuss about the implications of Saddith's 'punishment' and about the role of ('good' vs. 'bad') sexuality in the Mordant books. This is a very difficult topic, in my opinion. For example, you could ask why Lebbick, who nearly rapes Terisa, gets such a lot of understanding, while Saddith doesn't. And I could ask why nearly every villain in the books is either 'perverted' (Eremis, Festten?) or homosexual.
I don't think there's such an easy answer to these questions though.
There's certainly a lot to ask/say/discuss about the implications of Saddith's 'punishment' and about the role of ('good' vs. 'bad') sexuality in the Mordant books. This is a very difficult topic, in my opinion. For example, you could ask why Lebbick, who nearly rapes Terisa, gets such a lot of understanding, while Saddith doesn't. And I could ask why nearly every villain in the books is either 'perverted' (Eremis, Festten?) or homosexual.
I don't think there's such an easy answer to these questions though.
Last edited by Torrent on Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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siaho
Re: Did Saddith deserve what she got?
poor saddith. no, she didn't deserve to be so beaten, and ultimately killed. she never meant to bring harm to Terisa, she mearly told Ersmes what he wanted to know. She was the victim of his plotting, and her own need to sleep her way to something better. As for what Lebbic did to her, no, she deserved none of it, but he doesn't deserve blame either. he was halfway insane, and what he learned from her very well saved the kingdom by giving him something true to hold onto his sanity: the fact that terisa and gareden were innocent.Lord Revan wrote:Did she deserved what Lebbick did to her? I don't think she did... she was a nasty slut... no doubt... but she didn't deserve what happened to her. What do you people think?
btw, i probably butchered the spelling of character names, i appologize.
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fightingmyinstincts
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re
I know a lot of people with her mindset, only they're not even doing it for power...I see them as just very very sexual and full of joie de vivre....and unethical, but that's personal, I don't judge them or shun them. I would have hung out with Saddith and blushed at her ribbing like Terisa...I AM Saddith to a friend of mine, I harass her about her sex life or lack of it constantly, to see her change color...
"Well of course I understand. You live forever because your pure, sinless service is utterly and indomitably unballasted by any weight or dross of mere human weakness. Ah, the advantages of clean living."
TC to Bannor, LFB
TC to Bannor, LFB
No, Saddith didn't deserve it; but doing things they way she did, she should have expected sooner or later there'd be some price to pay, like STD or jealous ex-lover things. Too bad she was the moth to Eremis' flame...
When the man with a 45 meets the man with a rifle, you said the man with a pistol is a dead man. Let's see if it's true.
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duchess of malfi
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Truly evil, IMHO. 
I agree--Saddith definitely got the beating that was coming to Eremis. It was really Eremis who Lebbick wanted to pound into mulch.
But I can't help but feel that Saddith deserved something. Her actions were definitely not those of a good guy. She manipulated everyone to gain her own ends. The scale of the crime is the only thing that differentiates her from Eremis. He wanted the world--she wanted to be a "lady."
I think they both, in the end, got punished for their crimes--in Eremis's case, I'd have to say the punishment fit. Saddith's didn't, because she got punished for her own, and for Eremis's. Not fair really. But then, that's Elega's complaint through the whole thing, isn't it?
But I can't help but feel that Saddith deserved something. Her actions were definitely not those of a good guy. She manipulated everyone to gain her own ends. The scale of the crime is the only thing that differentiates her from Eremis. He wanted the world--she wanted to be a "lady."
I think they both, in the end, got punished for their crimes--in Eremis's case, I'd have to say the punishment fit. Saddith's didn't, because she got punished for her own, and for Eremis's. Not fair really. But then, that's Elega's complaint through the whole thing, isn't it?
Halfway down the stairs Is the stair where I sit. There isn't any other stair quite like it. I'm not at the bottom, I'm not at the top; So this is the stair where I always stop.
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The Dreaming
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I am not exactly sure Mordant's need is exactly all about wrong- retribution. Donaldson said himself that Mordant's need was a stepping stone between Chrons and GAP, and I think assigning blame to these characters is only an exercise for our own minds, not an objective analysis.
My opinion? Saddith was just being used. Her own vaunted sexual gift was reversed and turned against her by Eremis. It all comes back to him. Is saddith blameless? No. But she was just a tool of despite- *cough* I mean Eremis' plots.
My opinion? Saddith was just being used. Her own vaunted sexual gift was reversed and turned against her by Eremis. It all comes back to him. Is saddith blameless? No. But she was just a tool of despite- *cough* I mean Eremis' plots.
Last edited by The Dreaming on Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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duchess of malfi
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Saddith isn't a particularly "nice" character, but I would agree that she is manipulated and used by a Master. As far as I know, before this her relationships with men were fairly straightforward (or at least I get the impressio nthat they are)-- I sleep with you, you give me a step up the ladder in return. I don't think she had a clue about what she was getting into when she got into a relationship with Eremis.
Love as thou wilt.
Maybe we're not supposed to judge here, but I guess my opinion can't hurt, here, with all these other opinions to keep it company.
Saddith surely didn't deserve to be beaten half to death for her part in the plot... She deserved something, but her treachery was less than say, the Armigite's, who got ignored for his desire for ignorance.
But for the moral crime she was committing, the punishment perfectly fitted the crime. (poetic justice?)
Saddith was wielding what some would call," the ultimate power a woman can wield over a man," She was flaunting and wielding it carelessly like Drool with the Staff of Law, using it as a weapon for her own power.
She thought nothing of others, and never grew like other characters did.
She got, as her punishment. "the ultimate power a man wields over a woman." Hers was an extreme situation. One one hand, she exploited the fundamental weakness of men, but in turn, she suffered the weakness of women.
The interesting thing is that after the beating by Lebbick, she couldn't go on. She was SO empty as a person, that living was pointless without the weapon of her beauty (which Lebbick merely removed from her, disarming her, not killing her) she never found out how pointless it all was.
All the people she had used did her nothing once she was spiked through and dead. They dispersed, abandoning her, after hearing that 94 of them might be a guard in disguise. (Or perhaps, it was supposed to mean that many of the outraged people could be just like Lebbick under their 'disguise' of outrage)
I think that if pushed, I would say that yes, poetically, she deserved to be disfigured (disarmed of her weapon of beauty, which she has used evilly) and she deserved to be betrayed by all the men she'd used (when they didn't lynch Lebbick)
But I think she was killed because she once again forgot herself, and attacked the Castellan with a knife, surely a guard would kill her in his defense? I dont think she actually 'deserved' this, but it was inevitable. Having lost her beauty, she was dead. She was not one to ever live with her damage.
Yes, she was manipulated by Eremis to performing certain acts. But the crime for which she was ultimately punished was something she was doing long before she ever met Eremis. And manipulation was HER game, she should have been less ambitious, and more cautious. She had to understand the possibility of being manipulated, after all, she's been manipulating all her life. She got careless, and over-bold.
So I'll say she deserved disfigurement, but maybe not death. Her death was to show that she was too shallow to live without her weapon of looks.
Saddith surely didn't deserve to be beaten half to death for her part in the plot... She deserved something, but her treachery was less than say, the Armigite's, who got ignored for his desire for ignorance.
But for the moral crime she was committing, the punishment perfectly fitted the crime. (poetic justice?)
Saddith was wielding what some would call," the ultimate power a woman can wield over a man," She was flaunting and wielding it carelessly like Drool with the Staff of Law, using it as a weapon for her own power.
She thought nothing of others, and never grew like other characters did.
She got, as her punishment. "the ultimate power a man wields over a woman." Hers was an extreme situation. One one hand, she exploited the fundamental weakness of men, but in turn, she suffered the weakness of women.
The interesting thing is that after the beating by Lebbick, she couldn't go on. She was SO empty as a person, that living was pointless without the weapon of her beauty (which Lebbick merely removed from her, disarming her, not killing her) she never found out how pointless it all was.
All the people she had used did her nothing once she was spiked through and dead. They dispersed, abandoning her, after hearing that 94 of them might be a guard in disguise. (Or perhaps, it was supposed to mean that many of the outraged people could be just like Lebbick under their 'disguise' of outrage)
I think that if pushed, I would say that yes, poetically, she deserved to be disfigured (disarmed of her weapon of beauty, which she has used evilly) and she deserved to be betrayed by all the men she'd used (when they didn't lynch Lebbick)
But I think she was killed because she once again forgot herself, and attacked the Castellan with a knife, surely a guard would kill her in his defense? I dont think she actually 'deserved' this, but it was inevitable. Having lost her beauty, she was dead. She was not one to ever live with her damage.
Yes, she was manipulated by Eremis to performing certain acts. But the crime for which she was ultimately punished was something she was doing long before she ever met Eremis. And manipulation was HER game, she should have been less ambitious, and more cautious. She had to understand the possibility of being manipulated, after all, she's been manipulating all her life. She got careless, and over-bold.
So I'll say she deserved disfigurement, but maybe not death. Her death was to show that she was too shallow to live without her weapon of looks.
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Avatar
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I don't really have anything to contribute on the subject, just wanted to say "Great post" again. 
On the whole, yes, in terms of poetic justice, she did get a "suitable" punishment. Of course, it could be argued that nobody ever deserves something like that, but we're not concerned with the moral implications here, simply good story-telling.
The "punishment" fitted the "crime" perfectly, as was no doubt the intention.
--Avatar
On the whole, yes, in terms of poetic justice, she did get a "suitable" punishment. Of course, it could be argued that nobody ever deserves something like that, but we're not concerned with the moral implications here, simply good story-telling.
The "punishment" fitted the "crime" perfectly, as was no doubt the intention.
--Avatar
I do see the point about the "suitability" of this punishment. Mordant's Need is full of appropriate revenges. (See the "Crappy Deaths in Book 2" thread.)Avatar wrote:On the whole, yes, in terms of poetic justice, she did get a "suitable" punishment. Of course, it could be argued that nobody ever deserves something like that, but we're not concerned with the moral implications here, simply good story-telling.
But just to play Devil's Advocate here
--since I also think Saddith was a baddy, if not on the scale of Eremis & Co.--I would say that we are, in fact, concerned with moral implications here. "Did Saddith get what she deserved?" is the name of this thread... How do we discuss what she "deserved" without making moral judgments concerning her behavior?Halfway down the stairs Is the stair where I sit. There isn't any other stair quite like it. I'm not at the bottom, I'm not at the top; So this is the stair where I always stop.