Did Saddith deserve what she got?

[LordSlaytan]

Of course, there are plenty of strong women in Mordant as well, but then, they seem to have the advantage of noble birth.

True, but what real power did they really have? It didn't seem that they were ever allowed to make any decisions that could, or would, decide Mordant's fate.

Oh yeah...thanks for replying to the 'new guy'.

[Myste]

If, at any time, it was let on that she wanted to betray Theresa due to her own insecurity, envy, or outright jealousy, then she could be considered ‘bad’, but it seemed to me that she liked Theresa and had no idea that she had betrayed her.

You make a lot of good points, LordSlaytan, but this one I don't agree with. Saddith's betrayal of Terisa--telling Eremis about the secret passage through her wardrobe--must have been a calculated thing. Saddith saw the chair in the wardrobe; she told Terisa to keep her knowledge of the passage a secret; and Saddith promptly told Eremis about it. I'll grant that it's possible Saddith didn't realize the extent to which she was betraying Terisa, but I don't think you can argue that she didn't know she was doing so. You could argue that Saddith didn't view it as a betrayal at all, but then why did she tell Terisa to keep it a secret in the first place?

As far as Saddith trying to seduce Geraden...I think it was just an ego thing. She had often mentioned that Theresa was enormously beautiful. Perhaps it was a way for her to say to herself, “Yep. I still got it.”

This seems very accurate to me--a good read! I hope you'll come join us in the Mordant's Need Group Read "Casting the Augury" forum, Lord Slaytan, I'll bet your ideas will really add to the discussion!

[matrixman]

Welcome, LordSlaytan, and thanks for the great post!

[LordSlaytan]

...telling Eremis about the secret passage through her wardrobe--must have been a calculated thing.

This seems very accurate to me--a good read! I hope you'll come join us in the Mordant's Need Group Read "Casting the Augury" forum, Lord Slaytan, I'll bet your ideas will really add to the discussion!

I understand what you mean. I just don't see it as a betrayal in the sense that she knew Therisa would be put in extreme jeopardy by her telling Eremis what she knew. But then again, I really should read the story again, even though I just read them again for the third time recently. I didn’t have a clue that, for once, I would have an opportunity to discuss them. I really don’t see Saddith’s behavior at this point to be wicked at all; rather it’s just Saddith being Saddith. She saw an opportunity to make one of the most powerful and enigmatic men in Mordant happy, so she did. It is still a betrayal, but not a ‘wicked’ one in my eyes.

C’mon. Don’t make me despise Saddith. Please.


On a lighter note: Thank you for the welcome! I am positive that this will be a site that I visit daily, and respond to on a regular basis. The movie forum where I’m a moderator is full of immaturity (“I’d bang that ass! U sux…I am 1337!”), often alienating its adult members. I find it very refreshing to find a board that has members who are really passionate about what they speak about, and treat each other with a common civility. That said, I’d be more than happy to discuss anything concerning any of Mr. D’s work, as well as a lot of other author’s work.

BTW Myste: I really enjoy your wit. Fun stuff to read indeed.

Oh yeah...you guys can call me Slay.

[matrixman]

A comparison between Lena and Saddith has been running through my head. Nothing earth-shaking, just wanted to compare their respective predicaments to clarify my feelings toward these two women. Let's see:

Covenant-->Lena: rape -- violates her virginity
Lebbick-->Saddith: beating -- destroys her beauty

In the case of Covenant, we are a direct witness to the crime. It's a brutal, immediate, shattering event.

In the case of Lebbick, we don't witness the actual beating of Saddith, just a second-hand report after the fact.

Does the fact that we are a step removed from Saddith's beating make it easier for us to accept it? And do we more easily accept the brutality of Saddith's punishment because, in contrast to an innocent like Lena, Saddith is not a "virtuous" woman, and so her beating comes to be seen as morally justified? Maybe that's the point SRD is making?

[Myste]

I don't think SRD is really trying to make that particular point, but that doesn't mean the point doesn't get made anyway. I think he probably knows that hearing about an event second hand does distance the impact of that event: we are supposed to start pitying Castellan Lebbick after he beats Saddith, because with that beating we're supposed to understand how far Lebbick has been pushed. SRD has to distance the reader from the event so that we can cheer for Lebbick at the end. Otherwise he's just a sadist.

On the other hand, we're not meant to sympathize with TC right at first. He's an actively repellant guy, a real jerk, lusting after teenagers trying on cheap jewelry in town and hating the wondrous place he finds himself in simply because it's so wondrous. The Rape of Lena enables us to dislike him, but it also makes very clear just how far the experience of being transported to this new world has pushed him, and how horrible his life as a leper must truly have been. It's an event that throws both his past life and his future into stark relief.

So in other words, I don't think he's trying to make a point about "bad" girls and "good" girls. I think he's trying to tell his stories in the most efficient way possible--by playing on our sympathies for the victims and the attackers, and by blurring the line between the two.

[Avatar]

I certainly agree that the whole "beating" of Saddith episode is actually about Lebbick more than anything else.

And I think that your suggestion about the "blurring" of the lines between attacker and victim is a good one. Perhaps a comment on the fact that there is almost always more to anything than meets the eye?

Not that the actions are justified, but that they don't always, or even most times, simply spring from nothing?

Slay-- As has been said, welcome aboard. We look forward to your participation, and are usually quite a nice bunch of folk. When we're not in the thoes of some insanity or another.

--Avatar

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Hummm...
'Deserved' is a pretty strong word, but I really did get the impression that she dominated men in the past through their attraction to her, and they were mostly devoted to her until she was through with them.
She played the game, and she lost. Really bad. I can't scrape up anything better than pity for her. I don't think romance or sexuality should ever be used as a tool. That's another word for abuse.

[Tjol]

deserve is such a loaded word....

Saddith encountered a manipulator just a little bit more gifted and cruel than she was. Then again, maybe she wasn't a manipulator until Eremis began manipulating her. But, there are examples of her acting in ways to hurt Terisa in between. It seems clear that she was attempting to seduce Geraden not for her 'itch' but rather to weaken Terisa's resolve.

Saddith had smaller ambitions, and was not as cruel a person as Eremis...I'd say Eremis was an exponentially worse version of Saddith....but Saddith was a manipulator, and a manipulator who didn't have any consideration for others. Sure, she did things to earn Terisa's trust, but only for the sake of manipulating Terisa for the sake of Eremis.

She didn't deserve it for just that, but because she taunted Lebbick and insulted his intelligence, she was the initiator of what happened. She could have given up Eremis right away.... that's what Lebbick said he was after anyways right?

Deserved is so loaded a term tho. Does a person who sticks their hand in a bear cage deserve to be mauled?


edit: I think the whole line that another post mentioned about saddith losing her beauty, and not knowing how to cope without that weapon....anything that could effect the a similar interpretation would read well. Maybe instead of being beaten so thoroughly, she needed only some turn of events that had a negative effect on her looks or her ability to charm.

Also, I think Eremis' death wasn't substantial enough....maybe a few sentences saying that Eremis recognises he's being defeated, his face twists in agony...just as the image in the mirror finally shifts...forever trapping him in a moment of defeat, of being now impotent in the world he thought he owned, and never being able to escape from the moment he was conquered by Terisa.

Eremis needs some sort of eernal torment to live with. I think Gilbur was always tormented... and Vagel being killed with a featherduster, full of fear....

although Vagel doesn't sound so evil, he seems weaker and less substantial when he finally appears in the story...when you compare him with all the power he's supposed to have.

[Avatar]

although Vagel doesn't sound so evil, he seems weaker and less substantial when he finally appears in the story...when you compare him with all the power he's supposed to have.

Now that is an interesting point, and one which, if it's been addressed here, I've never noticed. Now that I come to think of it though, he certainly didn't seem to be a character of the magnitude suggested by the "foreshadowing".

--Avatar

[Revan]

Vagel was weak... I mean we heard so much about him in the first book, you expected that this guy would own all the bad and good guys. But he sucked, For all the things that we heard of him in the first book, Eremis was the real power in the second book, and in the first as well. Only we never knew that of course. So all the work that people said was Vagels was in fact Eremis'.

[Avatar]

Based on what I remember, I have to agree. Pretty much everything seemed to be Eremis' manipulations.

--A

[danlo]

Your right about Vagel's diminshed aura when he finally appears--he's older than Havelock right? Maybe debauched from Carmag's lifestyle. I seem to remember that he did make some key contributions. But exactly what--I must review the literature! (after this dang class ends this week! )

[IrrationalSanity]

Vagel can make formula for a mirror to show pretty much anything he wants. Not quite the same as Terisa and Gereden's ability to shift the base subject - Vagel actually can set that base in the mirror's design. Most Imagers require a lot of trial and error to get even close.

Note also, as talented and evil an Imager as Vagel was, in the end this cabal belongs to Eremis. Remember, on their own, without glass, Imagers don't really have any personal "powers" to speak of. Vagel spent years wandering alone, without resources, so he was probably broken by that to some extent, and this is why he was willing to play second fiddle.

[Spring]

I'm reading Mordants Need right now, and loving it, and just passed the conversation between Artagel and Lebbick.

I don't know how any of this has turned out (probably will tomorrow), but I don't think she deserved it. As the Castellan rightly said, she is a slut, but hitting women IMHO is wrong.

[Avatar]

Great, when you're done, maybe you can breathe a bit of life into the discussions here, they seem to have slowed down a bit.

As for Saddith, while she certainly didn't "deserve" it any more than anybody else would, she was scarcely blameless, so something was probably deserved. What though...

--A

[Spring]

Well, personally, I am upset by the Castellans death than anything else.

Heh. But Saddith didn't deserve death. The "horrible disfiguration", yes, but death is an extremely harsh price.

[Avatar]

I can't remember what I said earlier in this thread, but horrible disfiguration was probably a lot worse than death.

I'd be less likely to say she deserved that, than that she deserved to die.

--A

[Tjol]

Killing, or assisting people in killing others, imo warrants death. Disfigurement in my opinion fits the true definition of cruel and unusual.... although I doubt that Lebbick even meant to disfigure so much as he was simply exerting his rage upon her, and well, the flesh doesn't stand up so well.

[wayfriend]

If you consider that Saddith lived on her looks, that all of her ambitions and dreams depended on being bedworthy, then it's apparent that disfigurement is worse than death.