Kevin's Watch

This topic was inspired by Darth Revan (or whatever he calls himself now) who posed these questions: Was Adept Havelock Insane and Was He a "Nice Guy"? The questions are capitalized cause they were also Darth's topics, one I deleted on purpose and one I deleted by mistake. I liked both topics alot and it was Darth's impatience that led to the deletion. However he brings up alot of interesting points.

We've never really analysed Havelock in depth before, we've never questioned the exact level of his sanity, how much he knew or didn't know and how his younger days were spent. What was that level? Sure he was mad, but how much of it was actual madness and how much was part of an act. Or was it? Were some of Havelock's non-lucid moments a quise to weigh other's characters and guard against other's finding out too much? Was he, to some degree, caught up in Joyse's acting? Did he know much more of what was going on than he let on? Was it he who convinced Joyse that Mordant's predicament was analogous to Hopboard?

What little can we piece together form his younger days? Why does he hate Vagel so much? Do you think he ever played with the secret mirrors-if so what is the extent of that knowledge? What exactly did he know and not know--at some points he seemed to know more of what was going on than most...Did you like him, was he nice at all, did he make you laugh..what??

Your going down Danlo

I'll repond after I finish this dissection

danlo wrote:We've never really analysed Havelock in depth before, we've never questioned the exact level of his sanity, how much he knew or didn't know and how his younger days were spent. What was that level? Sure he was mad, but how much of it was actual madness and how much was part of an act. Or was it? Were some of Havelock's non-lucid moments a guise to weigh other's characters and guard against other's finding out too much? Was he, to some degree, caught up in Joyse's acting? Did he know much more of what was going on than he let on? Was it he who convinced Joyse that Mordant's predicament was analogous to Hopboard?

Here are a series of observations mixed with opinions: Havelock's insanity was certainly not a guise, though almost all of his actions supported Joyse's manipulations. His outbursts were unpredictable, but they did seem to follow a pattern. I think Havelock was very frustrated at his own inability to remain focused, which only added a dangerous edge to his madness. We were told at one point that Master Quillon was especially talented at treating Havelock in just the right way to preserve his lucidity----it looks like Quillon's way mostly involved observant patience. I think the saddest part is that it seemed Havelock knew exactly what was going on around him. The madness merely took away his ability to act reliably in response---he wasn't senile, or dumb, or insensate, or even oblivious. He was nuts.

Rather than Havelock's insanity supporting Joyse's strategy, however, what if Joyse's strategy was in part inspired by Havelock's insanity? The two fit together very nicely. Maybe Joyse realized early that Havelock's insanity, while very unfortunate, did not render Havelock useless, as most others seemed to assume. In fact, it worked just like another part of the overall hopboard analogy. Checkers strategy can be all about making stupid-seeming moves to draw your opponent out and give them a false sense of superiority, when in fact you have been forcing them to move in a pattern of your own choosing. The bigger question is, whose idea was it to adopt the passivity strategy: Havelock, or Joyse?

I think that's a trick question, though. At first, I would think it would be Havelock, who cast an augury at Joyse's birth which foretold his greatness. However, it seemed like Havelock always provided the methods to attain the goals that Joyse was passionate about. Joyse had the passion (always trying to save the world), and Havelock, who believed in him, was clever enough to devise the means to that end.

Mentioning the various auguries brings us to another whole discussion topic, which SRD has brought up before (via Mhoram's abilities and the powers of the Elohim) in TCTC: does an augury create the future? In other words, would the future of Mordant have been the same if those auguries had not been cast, or did the predictions become part of what shaped the future actions?

Back to Havelock-- Vagel was the one responsible for robbing Havelock of his sanity. I think from that point forward Havelock's primary goal was to get revenge on Vagel. With Vagel gone, his insanity lost its manic cackling dangerousness, turning him into more of a wacky old coot. I think Havelock was keeping his hold on sanity long enough to carry out this last plotting to its completion. I think fighting the insanity is what made him dangerous, because he couldn't afford to just let go.

Havelock is one of my favorite characters in MN. My favorite line of his is something like this: "What's the difference between an Apt and an Adept? DE-DE-DE-DE-DE-DE-DE!!!!!!!!"

DW

I think it is safe to assume that Havelock's augury showed much more than is directly revealed in the story. For example, we can be pretty sure that Terisa was in it - probably in her "final embrace" with Master Eremis. (My guess is that it even included a glimpse of the mirror showing their images within) How else can we explain Joyce's utter confidence in both Terisa and Gereden?

Havelock himself claimed to be the one who came up with Joyse's policy, said that he had worked it all out - because Joyse could never have thought up something which would hurt the ones close to him. I also got the impression that the madness was not something that stopped his sanity - it just got in the way of it. He was still aware of everything, still able to understand what was going on and plan - his mind was intact, for the most part, but unable to work clearly.

And about how much he knew in advance - Was the line DukkhaWahynim quoted just raving? The difference between Apt Geraden and an Adept was indeed, in the end, 'de'. In some ways, Havelock reminded me of Eriksons character Iskaral Pust, words that seem like nonsense ranting turn out to have significance - except that in Pust's case it may all be an act, but Havelock does it because he is unable to communicate in a better way than that.

I found Adept Havelock amusing and compelling from the moment he first had a speaking role, coming out from the back of Terisa's closet.

In [i]The Mirror of Her Dreams[/i] chapter 5 was wrote:"What're you doing here?" she [Terisa] breathed. "What you want?"

His thick lips shaking, Adept Havelock flinched as if she had threatened to strike him.

In spite of the alarm pounding in her throat, she felt forcibly the conflict between his ascetic nose and sybaritic mouth, the disfocus of his hot eyes. His self-contradictory visage made him look made him look wild--an appearance aggravated by his few remaining tufts of hair. And yet he seemed to be doing his best to calm her. His hands made reassuring gestures; his whole stance was unthreatening, even deferential.

"Luscious," he said, as though he meant, Forgive me. "All women are flesh, but you are its perfection." I didn't mean to frighten you. "Ha, ha, sneaking into bedchambers." I'm not going to hurt you. "Lust and lechery." You can trust me.

He was a madman--that much was unmistakable. Unfortunately, the knowledge wasn't much help. So he was crazy. So what was she going to do about it? She had no idea. Studying him warily, she retreated a step or two to give herself more space. Then she said, "There are two guards outside my door. They're both big, and they've got longswords. If I shout"--she faltered and almost panicked when she remembered that the door was bolted--"they'll be here before you can touch me."

Palms toward her, hands continued to make placating movements. Parts of his face expressed a fear of which other parts were ignorant: his eyes rolled, and his lower lip drooped, exposing crooked, yellow teeth; but his nose and cheekbones looked too determined to admit fear.

"This winter chills my bones," he told her as if it were a high secret. "No one understands hop-board."

Though they were speaking softly, he put a finger to his lips. Then he turned back toward the wardrobe and beckoned for her to follow.

"You want me to go in there?" Tension made her voice jump like his. The darkness behind the clothes was too deep to be measured. "Why?"

As persuasively as possible, he replied, "The King tries to protect his pieces. Individuals. What good are they? Worthless. Wor-r-r-r-rthless. It's all strategy. Sacrifice the right men to trap your opponent."

While he spoke, he kept beckoning, urging her toward him.

Reading the quoted passage an idea struck me. Havelock is full of disjointed, clashing parts. What are each origins and significance?

To list them:

- Ascetic nose

- Sybaritic mouth

- placating hands

- fears/can't handle questioning

Now the ascetic (also determined) nose - sounds like part of the idealistic man that created Mordant with Joyce. The placating hands also fit but what about the other two? Could they be repugnant remnants of his time in Vagel's school? As a spy he'd fear probing questions that could reveal him. The sybaritic dirty mouth was probably part of his false persona there. He needed a defining defect to fit in there. All the imagers in that school were despicable in some way according to Havelock.

Or possibly it's a facet of Vagel's personality that stuck to him as he passed through his flat glass. We see his lowly peeping Tom deviancies when Terisa talks to him.

It could explain why Havelock wanted to do away with Vagel so much. It wasn't just for the sake of the lofty dream, it was also to rid himself of these abhorent quirks.

Sounds good, shadowbinding shoe! I've especially thought the sybaritic mouth indicated the false personality created by his madness, and is not representing the real underlying personality of Adept Havelock.