Kevin's Watch

Tolkien Comparison

disclaimer: Reading the Covenant books and LOTR were major events in my life, and I mean no disrespect in this post. I am most critical to those things closest to my heart.

Hey! Just thought I'd stir the pot a bit.

Here and there I read about people comparing the Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant to Lord Of The Rings. This is an unfair comparison. Let’s just remember: The Chronicles is a story about a man in this world who struggles to deal with his problem (living as a leper). Lord Of The Rings is a pure fairy tale with no real correlation to the world as we know it. I believe Donaldson wanted the reader to decide for himself weather or not The Land was real. I think the first set was written so that The Land could be both real and imaginary. This adds substance to Tom’s “unbelief”. Steve writes of the land as if it is a dream; Things are simple, cut and dry. (that’s bad, this is good, people are simple and trustworthy, pure. The Lords are all knowing and regal …). Tempting. Though beautifully written, it is more believable as a dream (how’s THAT for a paradox!)

Because of his sickness, Tom has to give up “flights of fancy”. He can’t be a dreamer or the thoughts of what he can’t have anymore will drive him to suicide. This is why he is determined to believe The Land is a dream. Everything good that happens to him in The Land slowly weakens his resolve to survive in our world. (just when he is struggling with being outcast, he is called a hero. If he gets used to being a hero, he will go mad when he returns to our world.)

The Land could be a manifestation of his struggle, or it could be a viable option to leprosy.

A valid point or not, I just wanted to make it clear that The Chronicles is a very different kind of story (at least the 1st Chronicles) than LOTR, and that any comparison of the two should be carefully thought out.

Grimm.

.

Hey Lord Foul!

Sorry if I copied you're idea, I just changed my avatar a few weeks ago. Don't worry though, because like a raver, I change avatars & signatures whenever I'm in the mood.

Grimm. (the Crim' fan)

.

(**hears collective "oh boy here we go again" from watch community** fasten your seatbelts folks, and don't let Zeph see this...too bad Foul I love the "Crimson" Av {I am a big fan--you obviously overlooked my I Talk to the Wind lyrics in Vespers...} )

btw, I agree Grimm.

nevermind -- accidentally posted this in the wrong place

Uhh, in keeping with the ORIGNIAL post's question...
In writing the script... getting there folks, I'm getting there. (New post in TCTC script) I do see numerous similarities between the two.
A ring is the catalyst for the whole premise. A single person is the main focus. There are fantastical creatures and awesome human beings.
There's a big unseen bad guy who "wants the ring" and so forth.
Hopefully the "Tolkien Ripoff" will fade out as folks go see the movie (???whenever!) and find out that it's not quite the same story.

So...how many "Donaldson vs. Tolkien" threads do we need? Why must we exhaust our energies on a topic that has as much hope of resolution as the Middle East conflict? Thanks, but no thanks.

Sorry everyone. Just thought I had an original concept here. I should have looked harder for the three other threads on the very same topic:

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=693

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=434

Oh well, at least I'm not alone in my opinion.

Grimm.

Okay, since I just signed up, I figured I'd just go ahead and commit a faux pas and post to the "covenant vs. tolkien" thread.

In my opinion there are quite a few similarities between the Chronicles and LotR; however, these similarities are superficial. Most of the Tolkien deja-vu I felt re-reading the series after about 10 years was in Lord Foul's Bane.

Here's what I noticed, some of them so obvious I'm only including them for completeness:

White gold ring => the One Ring
Lord Foul => Sauron
Ravers => Nazgul
Quest for the Staff of Law => the Fellowship
Mount Thunder => Mount Doom
Foul's Creche => Barad-Dur
Revelstone => Minas Tirith
The One Tree => The White Tree

I could even get really nit-picky and point out Berek Halfhand => Beren One-Hand. Mythic figures from the deep past who suffered manual mutilation during their adventures and sired legacies of Important Persons.

I hope nobody thinks I'm trashing TCTC here - like I said I think the similarities are superficial. The story itself is about leprosy and unbelief. I wonder if perhaps the tolkienesque mood of the Land is intended to make the reader wonder too if the Land is real or a creation of TC's mind.

Flame away! ;)

sheesh

I'll join Tranquil in his faux-pasing. This subject is always good for a giggle.

Tranquil Hegemony wrote:Here's what I noticed, some of them so obvious I'm only including them for completeness:

White gold ring => the One Ring
Lord Foul => Sauron
Ravers => Nazgul
Quest for the Staff of Law => the Fellowship
Mount Thunder => Mount Doom
Foul's Creche => Barad-Dur
Revelstone => Minas Tirith
The One Tree => The White Tree

I could even get really nit-picky and point out Berek Halfhand => Beren One-Hand.

Not to mention:
Drool Rockworm / Gollum
Soaring Woodhelven / Lorien (woodsy people living in tree-houses)
The Giants / the Ents
Garrotting Deep / orc-strangling Huorns
Eoman / Eored (military units in Revelstone / Rohan)
Ramen / Rohan (yeah, I know the Ramen serve their horses and not vice versa, but we're still talking horsy peoples living in plains )
Kresh / Wargs

The superficial resemblances between Lord of the Rings and, particularly, Lord Foul's Bane are so numerous as to be somewhat distracting IMO. On the other hand, they are nearly all obviously superficial. Maybe Donaldson was in a sense toying with Tolkien's elements but trying to make his own combination of them and, in several cases, standing them on their heads. The tone and themes of the two works are very different and I find them an interesting complement to one another.

Theo wrote: Not to mention:
Drool Rockworm / Gollum

That's a good one. That reminds me too, remember the ur-vile or whatever it was who tried to bite off TC's ring finger?

Part of it is also due to the common source material available to both auhtors...the myths and legends of northern Europe. There is a thread or two floating around someplace in this forum of ways TCTC was influenced by Norse mythology...

he he he

SRD from the Gradual Interview on the official site wrote:David Frost once said, "When a writer asks for constructive criticism, what he really wants is a few thousand words of closely-reasoned adulation." Well, I have as much ego as anyone else. But for that very reason--I tried to explain this earlier in the interview--I distrust literary praise. And I did more than squirm when I saw the "comment" on the UK draft cover for "Runes": I screamed aloud. Fortunately, that was a *draft,* not an actual cover. Unfortunately, the actual cover has replaced the objectionable "comment" with an--to my mind--equally objectionable quote: "comparable to Tolkien at his best". <sigh> I've always disliked that quote. WHOSE best, I'd like to know? Mine? Tolkien's? And what is the *point* of these comparisons, I ask, since excellence is by its very nature incomparable? Comparing me to Tolkien is like admitting that I'm not very good. (But try telling *that* to a publisher....)

I think the comparisons are getting just a tad old myself too.

...excellence is by its very nature incomparable.... Well said Mr D.

And well said, Furlsy!

Comparisons between SRD & JRRT are as inevitable as they are odious. They're both massively important writers, and their use of roughly the same set of myths provides enough common ground to form a solid foundation for comparison and argument.

Sort of like Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid and Yoda. Mr. Miyagi told Ralph Macchio:
"You walk down one side road, you safe. You walk down other side road, you safe. You walk down middle of road--<squishing noise>--you get squashed like grape."
Yoda told Luke, "Do or do not. There is no try."Similarities are a starting point.

So come on. Mr Miyagi? Or Yoda? Or are they actually the same person? It's true that Yoda is a Jedi Master, but remember that Mr Miyagi has some tricks of his own.

Myste wrote:Comparisons between SRD & JRRT are as inevitable as they are odious. They're both massively important writers, and their use of roughly the same set of myths provides enough common ground to form a solid foundation for comparison and argument.

Sort of like Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid and Yoda. Mr. Miyagi told Ralph Macchio:
"You walk down one side road, you safe. You walk down other side road, you safe. You walk down middle of road--<squishing noise>--you get squashed like grape."
Yoda told Luke, "Do or do not. There is no try."Similarities are a starting point.

So come on. Mr Miyagi? Or Yoda? Or are they actually the same person? It's true that Yoda is a Jedi Master, but remember that Mr Miyagi has some tricks of his own.

Pardon my massive ignorance here - which came first, Empire Strikes Back or Karate Kid?

But what's the "odious" part? You just said there's a "solid foundation for comparison and argument". Is there anything wrong with that?