Kevin's Watch

I'm re-reading Illearth War for the 500th time and trying to figure out the answer to a question I've wondered about for a while. Mhoram tells Covenant about the Ravers and the Colossus forbidding them from the Upper Land when the One Forest was still in existence.

I don't have the book handy to check the exact wording, but Mhoram says something like "The Colossus forbade another foe: three tree and soil hating brothers who were old in the Spoiled Plains before Lord Foul first cast his shadow there."

So, what I'm trying to figure out is: Was the Earth around for a long time before the Creator cast Foul down onto the Earth?

Or was Foul around from the beginning of the Earth but only came to the Land later in the game? This would seem to be supported by the legend that says "Despite came with men when they entered the Land from the lands to the south" (or something to that effect).

Finally, a related question: Were the Ravers the ones responsible for the creation of the Spoiled Plains (i.e. they destroyed the trees and polluted the soil)? This seems to be the case, based on the legend, although it's never been 100% clarified that I know of.

I think that it's relative. The Creator made the Earth, and then cast his enemy into it and sealed him in with Time. But perhaps Time was there to begin with, and it was a one-way journey for Foul. So the Earth could have existed for millenia before Foul was imprissoned there - even though that could have been a wink of an eye for the Creator.

I also hold the theory that Foul was diminished when he was first cast into the Earth. So it took him millenia to regain enough strengh to start his struggle for freedom. And this could have been millenia on top of millenia, since it was the Creator himself who cast him down (as compared to the short 3.5 millenia spent refreshing himself after his defeats at Covenant's hand).

Landsdrop was created when the Land buckled and broke because of the banes burried beneath Mt. Thunder. I think this led to the defilement of the spoiled plains and the Sarrangrave, because the lower land was now fed by the polluted water coming from Mt. Thunder, and the lava pits of Hotash Slay. It was no longer connected in any way to the health of the Upper Land.

The Ravers came along later - after Man entered the Land. The Colossus was created by the Forests in order to keep the Ravers from entering the Upper Land.

Good thoughts.

Good questions, though, Encryptic. I've been pondering the exact timeline of these events myself. I like Romeo's thought that Foul was severely diminished when he received the smackdown from the Big Chief of the Cosmos. That's gotta hurt! I can imagine it would take an eon or two for Foul to recover his wits.

I'll take it one step further...

Remember how Foul was restored using Earthpower the first time Covenant beat him? I propose that Foul would have remained diminished from his battle with the Creator had Berek not unleashed Earthpower in the form of the Fire Lions. This is what allowed Foul to initially heal himself after being imprisoned inside Time. It was a few millenia after that when Foul first appeared in the Council of Lords - and to my knowledge there are no earlier stories of Foul's exploits. Coincidence? I think not.

So the Clave was correct ... "Berek the Betrayer"

Now THAT is interesting, Romeo. Berek the Betrayer indeed...

Romeo wrote:Remember how Foul was restored using Earthpower the first time Covenant beat him? I propose that Foul would have remained diminished from his battle with the Creator had Berek not unleashed Earthpower in the form of the Fire Lions. This is what allowed Foul to initially heal himself after being imprisoned inside Time. It was a few millenia after that when Foul first appeared in the Council of Lords - and to my knowledge there are no earlier stories of Foul's exploits. Coincidence? I think not.

Hmmm...yeah, I'll bet that was intentional on SRD's part...I mean, ccould be wrong, but it certainly seems possible, anyway...I wonder if Donaldson is going to make use of this in the Last Chronicles...*ponders*

Then again, it could be that if the whole land is a representation of TC's inner development this means that Lord Foul only appears when TC reached a particular stage in his life.

It can be also viewed also in the way that this is one particular version of the myth, as known by Mhoram. If you remember, the Elohim tell this tale quite differently; they all may be true, just different faces of the same story.

The same thing is true when you regard the tale of the Worm of the World's End - that does not quite reconcile with the tale of Creation as told by the people of the Land - and yet the Worm is real, as TC personally encounters it in TOT; so how is that? (Actually I asked this last question SRD in the gradual interview but I haven't got an answer yet, maybe never will.)

Romeo wrote:I'll take it one step further...

Remember how Foul was restored using Earthpower the first time Covenant beat him? I propose that Foul would have remained diminished from his battle with the Creator had Berek not unleashed Earthpower in the form of the Fire Lions. This is what allowed Foul to initially heal himself after being imprisoned inside Time. It was a few millenia after that when Foul first appeared in the Council of Lords - and to my knowledge there are no earlier stories of Foul's exploits. Coincidence? I think not.

So the Clave was correct ... "Berek the Betrayer"

Hmmm...interesting theory. The only problem I have with that one though is that in the Second Chronicles, Foul corrupted the Earthpower by using it to heal himself after Covenant defeated him. (Is this correct? I haven't read the Second Chronicles recently so it's not totally fresh in my mind.)

Theoretically, Foul should have corrupted the Earthpower (by using it to restore himself) after Berek released it, unless something prevented Foul from doing so. (Berek creating the Staff of Law?).

Maybe he built his power up in different ways over time by using the Ravers to influence various creatures and people in the Land. Was it ever specifically said that a Raver was responsible for the King becoming a bad guy? Perhaps they influenced the Viles to create the Demondim, just as they eventually lured the Demondim to spawn the ur-viles.

They might've also been influencing the Cavewights to delve deeper into the Earth in search of the banes under Mt. Thunder. Drool did eventually find the Illearth Stone millenia later, which obviously benefited Foul in the end. The Cavewights weren't evil in the beginning, as I recall. They traded with the humans, so it's possible Foul was responsible for them becoming evil in the end.

I seem to recall reading another thread that had been posted a while back about how Foul is "all-seeing" and was able to predict various possible paths of events, thus allowing him to try manipulating things to his advantage.

My head is starting to spin, so I'll leave it at that for now.

I remember that Foul corrupted Earthpower, thus causing the sunbane. But I don't know if that corruption was due to the fact that Foul hid within it while he healed. I always saw those as two separate things - Foul being restored by Earthpower, and Foul then corrupting Earthpower to create the sunbane.

Perhaps he wasn't aware that he was restored through Earthpower the first time, and therefore didn't think to use it against itself.

Yes - it was noted specifically that a Raver had possessed Berek's king (I think this came out during the Clave's Soothtell).

Romeo wrote:it was noted specifically that a Raver had possessed Berek's king (I think this came out during the Clave's Soothtell).

Your pardon, kinsman...I've just reread the Soothtell chapter, and I think you've recombined it with something in the First Chronicles. I didn't see a mention of any of the Berek history; what was revealed was that every na-Mhoram of the Clave had been possessed by a Raver since the original one who turned the Council into the Clave.

Random, but I was always under the impression that when the King turned evil one day it was because of LF himself. Either LF possessed the king directly (not his M.O.) or was able to tempt him into doing exactly what LF wanted.

Durris wrote:

Romeo wrote:it was noted specifically that a Raver had possessed Berek's king (I think this came out during the Clave's Soothtell).

Your pardon, kinsman...I've just reread the Soothtell chapter, and I think you've recombined it with something in the First Chronicles. I didn't see a mention of any of the Berek history; what was revealed was that every na-Mhoram of the Clave had been possessed by a Raver since the original one who turned the Council into the Clave.

Isn't it mentioned at the very end when Linden is possessed and remembers all the Raver's past?

This was driving me crazy. I knew it was samadhi, but I couldn't think of where I read it (and I thought it was the soothtell, since samadhi is the raver that had infiltrated the Clave).

But I finally found it. Three cheers for holding onto what shred of sanity I have left!

The Illearth War, when Mhoram is asking for entrance into the Deep. He says, "Samadhi his brother guided the monarch of Doriendor Corishev when that mad king sought to master the life and death of the One Forest."