Kevin's Watch

dlbpharmd wrote:

Jon-Ross Mallon wrote: First off, I just wanted to say, that I have not read another book which compares to yours in any way... I have read both series of TCOTC many times, and they are by far my favorite books. I have been hoping ever since reading the 2nd series the first time, about 5 years ago, you would come out with another series, and I couldn't be more happy that you are.
My question is about the marrowmeld that Elena made for Convenant, could you elaborate on the symbolism of the cross between Covenant and Bannor in the marrowmeld?

SRD wrote: Think of it as the sort of cryptic warning you get from an oracle. The warning to Bannor is fairly straightforward. Look at what happens to Korik, Sill, and Doar in "The Power that Preserves." The warning to Covenant is more subtle. Elena's sculpture hints at the danger for Covenant in the moral absolutism/purity of the Bloodguard.

(04/14/2004)


Could someone elaborate on this for me? This answer went right over my head.

Thanks for asking, dlbpharmd. You folks are doubtless tired of hearing my voice by now, but I couldn't leave this question alone!

In TPTP, Quaan and Mhoram discuss the sculpture's meaning:

SRD wrote: "Quaan, the resemblance is that both ur-Lord Covenant the Unbeliever and Bannor of the Bloodguard require absolute answers to their own lives. With the Bloodguard it was their Vow. They demanded of themselves either pure, flawless service forever or else no service at all. And the Unbeliever demands—"
"He demands," Quaan said sourly, "that his world is real and ours is not."
Another smile eased Mhoram's somberness, then faded. "This demand for absolute answers is dangerous. Kevin, too, required either victory or destruction."

When Covenant comes to the showdown with Foul at the end of TPTP, recall that he does not kill or totally destroy Foul--and he does not even vanquish Foul by force. At the beginning of TPTP, Covenant is motivated by hate (he keeps thinking "Hate?" to himself for a bunch of early chapters, if I remember right). By the final conflict, he's no longer so. He even tells the assembly of living and dead Lords who appear, "Forget about Foul and heal yourselves!" He and Foamfollower reduce Foul to impotence by laughter alone. No hate, no vengeance, not even the either/or of Unbelief. Just affirmation of life for its own sake.

It had taken the disaster of the Vow--and Bannor's quietly heroic acceptance on the far side of it--to bring this within Covenant's reach. Covenant both transcends his demand to choose between the exclusive realities of RL and the Land (by discovering "hope in contradiction" and by realizing that what happens in the Land is morally binding whether or not "real" in his terms) and arrives at a renunciation of vengeance that only Bannor was in a position to demonstrate by example.

Fist and Faith's Dissection of the TPTP chapter "The Spoiled Plains" says more about this, more eloquently than I can.

What I find strange is that Elena could warn both TC and Bannor about the dangers of requiring absolute answers, when she herself did just that. I always thought that Elena felt that, as the High Lord, it was her responsibility to not merely oppose, but actually deafeat, the Despiser. This, I belive, had a part in preventing her from being able to turn back and take the knowledge that she had gained to the council. Of course she also had the hatred of Fangthane, and the compulsion to fight him, that had been placed in her mind during the Horserite of Kelenbhrabanal, either accidentally or purposely by the Ranyhyn as a means of striking against Lord Foul.

Sum sui generis
Vs

And Elena's own capacity for hate had been galvanized, perhaps, by her upbringing in a family so deeply marked by Covenant's early sins. She becomes a textbook case of what can happen when one fights Despite with its own passions.

Maybe, like many other creators, she was speaking to herself first in her art (certainly in my writing I am teaching myself faith, or trying to)...but the signal didn't get transduced all the way down.

I dont think SHE was warning anybody, but rather just commenting on the similarities between them, comparing the man she loved (shudder) to the servants of the land she admired. SRD is the one making the warning, and Mhoram is the only one who sees it.

Good shudder, Seppi. And I completely agree with your last sentence. But I don't think Elena was commenting on the similarities. I don't think she noticed the resemblance "that both ur-Lord Covenant the Unbeliever and Bannor of the Bloodguard require absolute answers to their own lives." Not consciously, anyway. I've said a few times that I don't think much of Elena, as far as wisdom goes, and this is another example. But to be fair to her, it took one of Mhoram's brilliance to see it, and he didn't do it alone:

After Mhoram and the survivors of the Warward had returned to Revelstone from Garroting Deep, Bannor had explained the history of the bone sculpture.

In fact, he had explained it in unaccustomed detail. His habitual Bloodguard reticence had given way almost to prolixity; and the fullness of his description had provided Mhoram with a first hint of the fundamental alteration which had taken place in the Bloodguard. And in turn that description had led circuitously to the great change in Mhoram's own life.

But it never came near the surface for Elena. I think she meant it when she said, "You tease me. I am not so poor a crafter." Yes, she noticed it somewhere inside, and sculpted it as she did as though under a post-hypnotic suggestion. (Either that or she really was a bad sculptor, and Mhoram saw the accidental message) But I don't think it was intentional.

*Cough* Plot device *Cough*

Fist and Faith wrote:But it never came near the surface for Elena. I think she meant it when she said, "You tease me. I am not so poor a crafter." Yes, she noticed it somewhere inside, and sculpted it as she did as though under a post-hypnotic suggestion. (Either that or she really was a bad sculptor, and Mhoram saw the accidental message) But I don't think it was intentional.

This is connecting somehow to the discussion at the tail end of one of the "word" threads--I think it was "What do the names signify?"--in which we pondered the role of an artist's conscious intentions vs. the direction the work takes with or without her awareness. The sculpture exemplifies the latter--but somehow, to me, although that is a plot device, it also comes out sounding very much like how art works in RL. Though an unseen Author isn't necessarily directing what comes out of our creations as was the case for Elena (I'd be fascinated to take further discussion of that point to The Close), not all of the perceptions that shape a work are accessible to self-awareness at the time of making the work.

Maybe Elena perceived the moral similarity of Covenant and Bannor down at the core somewhere--and could not become aware of seeing it because it would call her own extreme and unbalanced loves and hates into question. Her sculpting hands had less reason for self-deception than her conscious thoughts, perhaps.

Durris wrote:Maybe Elena perceived the moral similarity of Covenant and Bannor down at the core somewhere--and could not become aware of seeing it because it would call her own extreme and unbalanced loves and hates into question. Her sculpting hands had less reason for self-deception than her conscious thoughts, perhaps.

Now THAT'S an excellent thought!! I'm sure that kind of thing happens often enough in rl, but I haven't given too much thought to such things happening in the Land. Thanks!

Fist and Faith quoted SRD:

After Mhoram and the survivors of the Warward had returned to Revelstone from Garroting Deep, Bannor had explained the history of the bone sculpture.

In fact, he had explained it in unaccustomed detail. His habitual Bloodguard reticence had given way almost to prolixity; and the fullness of his description had provided Mhoram with a first hint of the fundamental alteration which had taken place in the Bloodguard. And in turn that description had led circuitously to the great change in Mhoram's own life.

It just occurred to me: Bannor became a much better narrator after the experiences that led to the making of the sculpture.

Since the difficulty of the Bloodguard--and indeed of their distant descendants--in telling a coherent, comprehensible story is often emphasized throughout the mythos (and its significance has been discussed on other threads), Bannor's suddenly becoming able and willing to communicate freely seems to carry a large significance for what is happening in his soul. But I can't quite figure out what that significance is; it would be more comprehensible if the change had come after the events of TPTP than before them.

Please enlighten me.

Brinn mentions Haruchai storytellers when he tells them about ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol, and specifically says that he wasn't trained as one in Coercri. I wouldn't say Bannor told a story, but rather, he gave a very thorough, even tediously so (prolixity), description of the events. We don't have reason to think that Bannor had training as a storyteller either, and I don't think the Bloodguard's/Bannor's change made him one, just much more willing to help the Lord's gain knowledge. (A process that began when they revealed the name of the 7th.)

Whether this was a new attitude for Haruchai, or just a change in the Bloodguard, I don't know. The Haruchai, of course, have no desire for knowledge and lore themselves, but it could be that they wouldn't have had any problem helping the Lords gain it, until they took the Vow, and saw a sort of conflict. (Back to my thread about the Vow's flaw. ) Either way, I think the attitude continued from then on. I don't think The Haruchai of the 2nd Chrons were unwilling to help Covenant gain knowledge and lore, even if they didn't have much opportunity/ability to do so.

As for what happened to Bannor, why he decided to talk, it's possible that even he didn't understand it yet. He just knew that something was different, and felt that sharing this information was important. We've speculated that Elena began the process of Mhoram's transformation unconsciously, and maybe Bannor continued it the same way.

And Mhoram noticed that something was very different. When he figured it out, when he actually put a name to it, that Bannor required absolute answers, whether it was in the taking of the Vow, or the breaking of it - pure service or no service at all - he realized that Elena made the sculpture as she did because Covenant also required absolute answers. And he was on his way.

Durris wrote:Fist and Faith quoted SRD:

After Mhoram and the survivors of the Warward had returned to Revelstone from Garroting Deep, Bannor had explained the history of the bone sculpture.

In fact, he had explained it in unaccustomed detail. His habitual Bloodguard reticence had given way almost to prolixity; and the fullness of his description had provided Mhoram with a first hint of the fundamental alteration which had taken place in the Bloodguard. And in turn that description had led circuitously to the great change in Mhoram's own life.

It just occurred to me: Bannor became a much better narrator after the experiences that led to the making of the sculpture.

Since the difficulty of the Bloodguard--and indeed of their distant descendants--in telling a coherent, comprehensible story is often emphasized throughout the mythos (and its significance has been discussed on other threads), Bannor's suddenly becoming able and willing to communicate freely seems to carry a large significance for what is happening in his soul. But I can't quite figure out what that significance is; it would be more comprehensible if the change had come after the events of TPTP than before them.

Please enlighten me.

Fist and Faith in his deep lore of the Haruchai answered this However I would just like to add my thoughts as well.

Discipline in Bannor was fueled by emotion. It churned inside him internally, like the dragon of the world wreaking havoc inside the belly of the earth. In any normal human being such extreme discipline with the paradox of churning passion would lead to many emotional as well as physical disabilities, among them say... high blood pressure, ulcers, various mental disorders possibly.

However in the mythos we collectively and fondly call our own such banes of the body do not exist for the "Vow" sustains the bloodguard. Like an eternal compulsion to "be true" and stay in the stasis of perfection.

The passions within could never be seen, never be held and never be approached. No amount of prodding or questioning (much to Covenant's chagrin) could force a leak of what could be conisdered human from them. However this stark, and naked passion could be identified solely by their need for absolutes as was augured by Elena, revealed by Mhoram, confirmed by Bannor and discussed in detail by yourself and Fist and Faith.

Knowing this we can understand that this emotional storm within was like a vice. It would never allow the Bloodguard to display anything or speak any more than neccessary. It squeezed each of them. Each bloodguard was stretched taut like a piano wire or guitar string. Tightned, tightened, TIGHTENED until the note of their perfect physical, mental and spiritual ability was reached, then tied down for all time. Pluck the string and you have perfection of combat, symmetry of movement, death and martial action personified.

The quote I made before from LFB in the female Haruchai thread was a foreshadowing of the gloaming of the Bloodguard:

But Bannor stepped over to the dead wolf and pulled Grace's cord from around it's neck. Holding the cord in a fighting grip he stretched it taut.

Then, on the spur of an obscure impulse, Bannor tightened his muscles, and the rope snapped.

Needless to say only the Earthpower (excuse my ignorance if it wasn't but I believe it was) which enabled the vow, could maintain the vow and the immense pressure which had to be applied to the tool of the Bloodguard for over two thousand years.

And so once the Vow was forsaken by the Bloodguard, the freedom to speak as they wished and even process the mental and spiritual issues they faced was open to them. Suffice to say, I believe the only reason why the Bloodguard did not openly break physically and emotionally after the Vow was shattered (and perhaps some did) was the benevolence of the Earthpower and that it's nature was inherently to preserve and heal, even when applied to absolutes like the Bloodguard. They could not answer why Kevin spared them before under the Vow because they were incapable of grasping the concepts. The bloodguard knew doubt, but they could not comprehend it.

Simply put, Bannor spoke openly (as openly as the man could after being succinct and wordless for 2000 yrs.) because the Vow no longer held him in thrall. Asking Bannor to try and wrestle with the issues before would be like asking a man covered from head to toe in a body cast in a hospital bed to get up and do a pantomime. Or a man (or woman) in a full suit of heavy platemail armor from the middle ages to take a fragile quill pen and write a love ballad. The weight and constriction of movement would never allow it. It's ironic that their outer movements were so freeflowing and lithe while within all was rigamortis. "We ...suffice"

(I'll only give a moment to clarify it all a bit more by adding that IMO sexual fustrations also fueled the passions I described above in the Bloodguard.)

Lastly I'll tell you how a reached my conclusions. I am a man, and like the fictional characters lusty, as well as passionate. So passionate that my emotions brook no other response but absolutes. I either train with weights 4-5 hours a day or I do nothing. I either read voraciously or I sit and linger. I diet till I border on a spiritual fast or I eat a whole Pizza. There is no "middle ground" for me. *snicker* yes it's unhealthy but I am, by nature, flawed. Still I think of myself as true.

Thanks for your time and patience through my long post.

Lament wrote:Thanks for your time and patience through my long post.

You keep posting like you've been, and patience isn't an issue. More like impatience, waiting for you to post again!

Lament wrote:Fist and Faith in his deep lore of the Haruchai answered this However I would just like to add my thoughts as well.

I'm sayin'! You got some serious lore going yourself! This is a fantastic post! The thought that the Earthpower kept them not only physically perfect, but also emotionally, is shocking. Yet you make a good case for it. The Earthpower might have thought (if it can think), "They can't do what they propose if they need sleep, and age and die, so I'll take away these weaknesses. They also can't do it if they feel certain things, which they certainly would after a millennia or two, so I'll remove that weakness also."

This reminds me of a comic book. Green Lanterns were (not sure if they still are) beings without fear. When one died, his ring searched out the closest fearless being, and asked if s/he wanted the job. But one time they revealed that there weren't any nearby who were fearless, so it removed the potential for fear from the most fearless person in range. Sort of lobotomized him.

I really hope we get to learn more about the Vow. GILDEN-FIRE doesn't tell what I want to know: Did the Haruchai know the Earthpower would respond the way it did? Did they have some experience with Earthpower? Maybe it had responded to them previously, when they were in total agreement on things. The wording of the Vow seems to say they did not plan to age and die: Sanctified beyond decline and the last evil of death.

I don't know...

Lament wrote:Lastly I'll tell you how a reached my conclusions. I am a man, and like the fictional characters lusty, as well as passionate. So passionate that my emotions brook no other response but absolutes. I either train with weights 4-5 hours a day or I do nothing. I either read voraciously or I sit and linger. I diet till I border on a spiritual fast or I eat a whole Pizza. There is no "middle ground" for me. *snicker* yes it's unhealthy but I am, by nature, flawed. Still I think of myself as true.

Hear hear!!!

Awesome post, Lament!!! What an asset to the Watch you are!!

Thank you my friends your words humble me.

I originally began writing this post with the thought that perhaps being held in thrall by the dead despiser-mate high lord Elena left some taint of which both Foamfollower and bannor needed to wash and left bannor changed/

Yet the more I read into the thread, gleaning the information and taking it in from the fine minds here the more I understood the true question and the more my conclusions became solid. Like watching the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle coming into place while I was still writing the words.

The situation reminds me alot of how my friends and I would argue about what "the quickening" meant / was in the highlander movie and subsequent cult. It's open, subject to interpretation and vague.

However while many people hold on to their own truths, this is mine. I humbly submit that I feel it is right, if nothing else by the process I underwent and my inner intuition that guided.

Happy I am that my words has provoked thought and enjoyment. Time shall tell how close to the mark my observations lay.

*bows*

Edit : I just realized how much i sounded here like the character "Pyle" from the movie "Full Metal Jacket" "This is my rifle! There are many others like it but this one is mine!" Ha! couldn't resist the urge to poke fun at myself.

Lament, you remind me alot of my brother. He, too, had similiar insights into the characters, especially Covenant. He was well-read, but the Chrons were by far his favorite. What you said about going rounds with your friends over The Quickening is exactly what he and I used to do over the Chrons, Kevin mostly, (and you hush, Fist).

It's all in how the reader interprets it, projects their own inner psyche into a story, I don't believe there is any right or wrong interpretation as far as Elena, or any of the characters, are concerned. We all interject our own inner selves into the characters we read. Stephen, my brother, identified deeply with Covenant because of the feelings of isolation and loss he felt over his leprosy. My brother had AIDS, which caused many inner conflicts and feelings of social isolation. Altho, he in no way despaired as Covenant did. But he did undersand him.

I think Elena, in producing the marrowmeld of both Bannor and Covenant shows how she, herself, intrepreted the paradox of power. The absolute danger of power. And how both Bannor and Covenant were capable of such danger.

They both require absolute answers...

Lament, I invite you my brother's memorial thread in the Hall of Gifts (in the Collective). It's at the very top of the page. In that thread I have posted entries from his 20 year old journal. I think you would enjoy it. Be warned tho, it has grown into a monster, 41 pages long.. so block off lots of time if you decide to read it.

Lament wrote:Knowing this we can understand that this emotional storm within was like a vice. It would never allow the Bloodguard to display anything or speak any more than neccessary. It squeezed each of them. Each bloodguard was stretched taut like a piano wire or guitar string. Tightned, tightened, TIGHTENED until the note of their perfect physical, mental and spiritual ability was reached, then tied down for all time. Pluck the string and you have perfection of combat, symmetry of movement, death and martial action personified.

Lament, have you perchance read Songmaster by Orson Scott Card? It's about a guild (really more like a monastic order) of far-future musicians who are trained from infancy. More important than their consummate vocal technique is their discipline of Control: they are allowed to express emotions only in song. This does some of them damage (there's a secondary Songhouse for the few who become insane from the training), but in successful trainees it gives an unanswerable emotional intensity to their music. No one outside the order can listen and not weep.

The Bloodguard are to martial arts what the Songhouse people are to music.

Lament wrote:The situation reminds me alot of how my friends and I would argue about what "the quickening" meant / was in the highlander movie and subsequent cult. It's open, subject to interpretation and vague.

RIGHT?????? Man, that drives me crazy!!!! "He cannot die, unless you take his head. And with it, his power."

Lament wrote:However while many people hold on to their own truths, this is mine. I humbly submit that I feel it is right, if nothing else by the process I underwent and my inner intuition that guided.

And that's what's important!!

Furls Fire wrote:What you said about going rounds with your friends over The Quickening is exactly what he and I used to do over the Chrons, Kevin mostly, (and you hush, Fist).

*biting tongue!!!!*

Durris, that sounds pretty interesting!

:quick Hijack:

There have been few times where I found myself "hurling into the void" into a new community. Blatently throwing around opinions and thoughts, theories and conjectures without the slightest idea of what was in store for me.

Here lies the paradox. It feels like there is a level of trust here in the watch. New ideas and opinions are not neccessarily regarded as inadequate, eccentric, subversive, harmful or threatening. Maybe one cringes in most forums today because of the nature of internet mannerisms. Scorn and defiance, trolling and flaming are all very integrated and standard modes of communication throughout the net, as sad as that is.

NOT HERE. People who love SRD and his works apparently do follow the adage which Foamfollower and many others in "the land" so often used in regards to new meetings. "Courtesy is like a drink from a mountain stream."

And so here I feel like I'm among friends. Not new ones mind, but old, as if we have spoken many, many times before and laughed in reminiscence. That sounds trite and corny, over-used and old-fashoned. Nevertheless I feel that way. I feel like I've known many of you for a long time.

*shakes head* anyway, Thank you Furls, I am honored that I remind you of your brother. I am *deeply* honored. I'll read the thread very soon.

I've seen that series before Durris! I've always been intrigued but I never delved into them. It's on my list to do now, and soon.

Fist, thank you my friend. It's been your encouragement which gave me the bravery to just put my ideas "out there".

And my thanks goes out to the entire watch. Lords, Rhadhamaerl, Lillianril, Warmark, Blooguard, and all the creatures good or ill in the realm.
/Hijack

Aye Both Bannor and Covenent required absolute answers, that much is certain. I was trying also to feature how the Bloodguard in particular required absolutes. For Covenant it's been said in LFB:

"Whichever way you go, however, one fact will remain constant: from now until you die, leprosy is the biggest single fact of your existance.It will control how you live in every particular."

LFB: Ch.2 "You Cannot Hope"

Exchange the words "Vow" for "leprosy", and the statement can fit the Bloodguard in the same way.

Lament wrote:Aye Both Bannor and Covenent required absolute answers, that much is certain. I was trying also to feature how the Bloodguard in particular required absolutes. For Covenant it's been said in LFB:

"Whichever way you go, however, one fact will remain constant: from now until you die, leprosy is the biggest single fact of your existance.It will control how you live in every particular."

LFB: Ch.2 "You Cannot Hope"

Exchange the words "Vow" for "leprosy", and the statement can fit the Bloodguard in the same way.

Abso-bleeping-lutely!!! (In fact I recently began working on a critical article describing this correspondence.)

This is why Covenant in his first getting-acquainted with Bannor is described as being moved "as though Bannor suffered from a rare form of leprosy."

Lament wrote:There have been few times where I found myself "hurling into the void" into a new community. Blatently throwing around opinions and thoughts, theories and conjectures without the slightest idea of what was in store for me.

Here lies the paradox. It feels like there is a level of trust here in the watch. New ideas and opinions are not neccessarily regarded as inadequate, eccentric, subversive, harmful or threatening. Maybe one cringes in most forums today because of the nature of internet mannerisms. Scorn and defiance, trolling and flaming are all very integrated and standard modes of communication throughout the net, as sad as that is.

I have less experience of Internet forums than most, but certainly many areas of Usenet are full of bad manners.

I find myself moved by your words for another reason.

Not long before I joined the Watch I separated from an offline community that had long been important to me. Its discourse on certain controversial issues had become increasingly intolerant; words like "heresy" were blithely used with no conception of "what if the person I'm speaking to holds the opinion I'm condemning?" Gradually but inexorably I stopped experiencing it as a "safe" place to be. So I'm acutely alert to what might be called the heresy-police phenomenon in any form--religious or secular, electronic or analog. It's not only the comparison to the circles I used to frequent that has made the Watch feel like an environment of uncommon emotional safety.

Ah Durris, my friend.

I am humbled by the sharing of personal history you graced us with here in the Watch. Thank you.

I am amazed and dumbfounded by this community. I give thanks for having found it.

This is why Covenant in his first getting-acquainted with Bannor is described as being moved "as though Bannor suffered from a rare form of leprosy."

When I read this particular passage I did not understand it. Who would have thought that through the combined melding of minds, (not unlike the new Lords of Revelstone combining their thoughts in council {at the first Chronicles}) It's meaning would have been made plain for me?