Kevin's Watch

Actually, the persective I like the most from TIW is the one that was trimmed from the novel and later released in a seperate novella -- Korik's in Gilden Fire.

Gives precious insite into the Hauchai, and really fills in the story of the Seareach mission. Lord Hyrim is a great character!

My opinion of Covenant wasn't really affected by Troy's views - I tend to keep the characters seperate, seperating different peoples opinions from what I actually know of that character, so that the opinion of Troy gives a lot of insight into Troy's own character without really affecting my views of Covenant much.

I agree with that, Murrin. We see what Troy thinks of Covenant, but by that time we already know enough about Covenant that we have already shaped our own feelings about him. My opinion of TC wasn't effected by Troy.

Perspective is definately an interesting thing. Covenant was (well, quickly became) vile from Troy's perspective. In the time that Troy was in the Land, the Unbeliever was held above all others as a hero. His flaws (if the Lords ever did see them as such) were played down, or hidden. And then Troy saw how damaged Covenant really was in person. More than a "normal" person - one that was damaged so much that he inflicted damage on those around him just by being there (and all in the name of self preservation and unbelief).

And look at it from the other direction. The Lords and warriors thought Troy an unsurpassable strategist. Covenant talked to him once and had him pegged - his presense in the Land could only serve Foul's purposes.

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And in the end, only the usual "extreme act of self sacrifice" on Troy's part that is common to the Land's heros - TC included - was able to reverse that prophecy.

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Is that the difference between good and evil? They're both intertwined in all the characters of the books. But the truly good acts come about only when one sacrifices themselves in service of someone else - or the Land itself. Evil would not do such.

And along the lines of Perspective, we saw the Broadway play Wicked the other weekend. Unbelievably wonderful! Such an unexpected reversal of everything you've come to think of Oz and its characters. As was discussed in another thread (I think), and touched on in one of the Gradual Interview questions, it would be interesting to see how this could be done with Lord Foul. I wouldn't think it any more difficult than making a hero from the Wicked Witch of the West, and that was done so superbly that I'll never be able to watch the original movie again and not think that Hollywood was covering things up in their telling.

duchess of malfi wrote:
Actually, the persective I like the most from TIW is the one that was trimmed from the novel and later released in a seperate novella -- Korik's in Gilden Fire.

I have never seen the series the same way since reading Gilden-Fire--which I didn't read until after I'd finished the first three books.

Unlike some readers, I don't think SRD "should" have left this material in the main narrative of TIW, because I agree with his point that having a viewpoint character native to the Land's world would bias readers even more toward regarding Unbelief as a cop-out. But I also feel that without Gilden-Fire, I wouldn't have nearly as deep a sense of, not only Haruchai history but the Haruchai manner of being. I think making Gilden-Fire a separate publication was a good thing to do.

Though Troy himself grates on me I think his prespective is perfect--we're really not supposed to like Covenant--yet we somehow do. At the end of LFB we may not understand him but we (for the most part) begin to warm towards him. But he's a odd character with a label we're not nesessarily used to in most of our literary travels: an anti-hero. As stated above the "Troy-vehicle" does a good job of attempting to slap our love of TC away.

This is the fundamental difference of the Chrons for me: TC's insane complexity-no warm fuzzy hobbit he! And one of the most unique characters ever created since recorded literature began!

Been a while since I visited the First Chrons but I remember being initially thrown of course by the switch of narrative from TC to Troy. Even more so in the 2nd Chrons

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where Linden plays an even larger part than Hile.

When I read the books I took them not only to be an amazingly rich fantasy epic but also almost a study of physcology(sp?). Someone stop me if I'm talking rubbish here but I found TCs narrative to be extremely relevant to anyone who has experienced any kind of alienation from people or has experienced any form of despair(depression, hopelessness, even normal bad moods) which basically includes anyone I can think of.

When the view switched to Troy yes Thomas's actions were brought into a different light, as you say the excuse was taken away but dont we all have excuses for everything that we do? These internal reasons are never seen by the outside world and therefore have no meaning other than to the person experiencing them. Does that make them any less valid?

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In the second Chrons Linden admits to some pretty dark stuff (re: parents) as well as her attempted stabbing of a Haruchia.

We see these from her viewpoint and they are understandable but if we saw it narrated from Brinns point of view would they be? No

Im aware I'm rambling(nasty habit of mine) but I hope Im getting my point across.

One thing I realised while reading the books was that everyone has a reason for everything they do and if we were in their place we would do the same.

Once again apologies for rambling ( I'm not even sure of what Im saying anymore!)

The W.A. Senior excerpts on the commentary/analyses page of the official site go into some good detail.

Steve is also working on getting permission to post a doctoral thesis (or at least portions of it) that has a lot to do with "man is a futile/effective passion" and other related philosophical debates. It was a bit difficult for me to read through, since I've never studied philosophy. But I was still extremely impressed as the insights, impressions, ideas, etc. It really shed some new light (or different light, or light from a different angle) on some of the things in the books. When that's posted, I'd definately recommend reading it. (the author of the thesis is in the process of moving the last I heard, which is what's slowing down the permission/posting process)

Have the author, title, and university of the doctoral thesis been posted anyplace? Sounds like something I should read even if I must hunt it down through Interlibrary Loan.

I hope he gets permission. Sounds very interesting.

I always found Troy to be slightly naive. It was like he just couldn't see that whether Covenant was trustworthy or not wasn't the point; whether Covenant was a nice guy of not wasn't the point; the point was that he was the white gold wielder, end of story. And even though I felt sorry for him because the Council kept information from him, I thought he too easily put aside the paradox of white gold.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Like many (I would guess!) I am currently on my nth read through the Chronicles in preparation for the release of The Runes of the Earth later this year (hope I make it in time and don't have to sit looking at it on my shelf while I still have books in the sequence to read! I'm not a fast reader!).

I have now reached 2/3 of the way through 'The Illearth War' and this is the first time (I think!) that I have read 'Gilden-Fire' in the correct sequence with the books and after reading the justifications for cutting it that Mr. Donaldson writes about in the foreward to that book (the fact that the viewpoint is from that of a character native to The Land and that this undermines Covenants unbelief in The Land if we are shown it to be real) and going on to read the middle of 'The Illearth War' which is from Troys' perspective (Covenant is sort of a guest star in his own series in this book!) I wondered how that argument held up.

Was he proposing that if the story was told from a the perspective of a person from Covenants' world (Troy) then all is fine? Are we expected to believe that Covenant & Troy are sharing the same delusion, the same dream, just that one believes it and one doesn't? Seems to me the whole reason for cutting what was originally the second part of the four parts of the original Illearth War just doesn't stand up (and I know that Mr. Donaldson sort of admits this in his Gilden-Fire foreward). TBH I'd realy like to see that aspect of the book 'restored'

Any thoughts or takers?

I think Covenant believes that Troy is not a real "real-world" person, just a character in Covenant's dream who is represented as originally from the real world. This theory is, at any rate not disproven, at the beginning of TPTP when Covenant calls the Defense Department and is told that no one named Hile Troy had ever worked there.

Durris wrote:I think Covenant believes that Troy is not a real "real-world" person, just a character in Covenant's dream who is represented as originally from the real world. This theory is, at any rate not disproven, at the beginning of TPTP when Covenant calls the Defense Department and is told that no one named Hile Troy had ever worked there.

I can't recall it right now if TC thinks the following after calling hte D.D., but WHY would the DD tell any layman who was working for them anyway?

Onto Troy... his perspective is truly welcome in the Illearth war, for all the reasons you all have listed, but one other. He reacted to the land in a way that any of us would....with passionate belief and desire to aid. WHo amoungst us didn't get really mad every time TC would NOT believe, and rejoice when finally he came around? Anyway, as a character Troy was flawed. Not because he beielved but because he allowed his desire to be more that he was in our world to surpass his actual abilities. He almost blew it for everybody.

My favorite persective in the Illeart war is that of Mhoram...IMO the greatest character in the book, bar none.

Exactly, A.G. I think the p.o.v. shift to Troy does two things: it lets us see the progress of the war (which we could not see, except through third-person accounts, if we stuck with Covenant exclusively), and it gives us another perspective on Covenant and his behavior. Troy reacted to the Land the way any of us would: "Hey, I can see! This is fabulous! Whatever you want me to do here, I'm in!" I don't think it ever occurred to him to think that the Land could be a dream -- and so when Covenant showed up and refused to go along with the Nice Hero script, Troy thought he was just a coward.

But as the war went on and Troy began to realize how outnumbered he was, there's a point where he acknowledges that maybe Covenant's attitude isn't completely untenable, after all. Of course, my copy of TIW is at home and I'm at work, so I can't provide the quote right now....

As for TC, Troy's presence in the Land just fueled his confusion about whether the Land was real. When Covenant "got home" from this trip to the Land, the paradox (is the Land real or isn't it) just about drove him crazy. There's that scene when he's talking to the DoD's p.r. guy, and the guy says there's no Hile Troy at this command, and Covenant yells down the phone line, "He never existed!" and hangs up. If TC had been thinking clearly, he might have realized that the military has thousands of commands, and just because Troy doesn't work for the one he called doesn't mean Troy's not a real person. But in the end, of course, it doesn't matter. Whether Troy's real or not -- whether the Land is real or not -- isn't the point. The point is how you choose to react to the situation you find yourself in.

True true! The other thing to remember is that the Lords were probably seduced in a sense by Troy's presence as well. They must have bought into his greatness because of his link to Covenant's world...hell, anyone who just appears from Covenant's world should be of similar stature, right?

The moment where Troy ascertains the depth of his pride-based folly is one of the best in the book. Right up there with "Lord Mhoram's Victory".