Kevin's Watch

I can't help thinking SRD messed something up with the beginning of the Second Chronicles... Foul's influence reaching into the real world - how is this possible if he's bound inside the Arch of Time?

Also, what's the nature of Joan's posession? Is Foul in her mind or a Raver? It doesn't seem so since they would probably talk to Covenant instead of just making her violent, but in her moment of clearness she talks about one of them, as if he's in her... And some of Linden's thoughts later seem to support it.

I agree it seems out of the ordinary. Foul wasn't meant to be able to turn up here. I think I saw an earlier thread mentioning that perhaps he was just projecting an image of himself via the fire.

But if so, then how about Joan. She'd gone mightily off her nut, and reckoned she was being forced and couldn't stop it, when in moments of clarity. That signifies possession by Foul or a Raver.

Interesting. Can a Raver possess without possessing, I mean project their control into someone over a distance without actually inhabiting them? This comes down to what constitutes the Ravers actual person.

And if Fould used the fire and ritual to enable a projection of himself into the fire, then why did he need all this when Foul or a Raver could possess Joan at will?

Only thing I can think of, is that he didn't project himself at all, nor did a Raver or Raver's control. Instead, summoning power was utilised, and Linden was partly summoned by Foul (or any other other summoner would do) to a point between the worlds where she could vaguely make him out.

Perhaps Joan worked the same way, perhaps a periphery of her mind was summoned to the Land, where it was possessed, and then it could be employed in out world due to the summoning not being complete.

Or maybe SRD looked at it, thought 'hmm that doesn't quite compute', but then his pizza arrived and he forgot to smooth it over

If I had to make a stab at it, I'd say that Joan was possessed by her own inner Despiser, which was in turn controlled by Foul (the uber-Despiser?). She gave up control of herself and was perhaps found by Foul during her New Age search for innocence.

The fact that Joan could be calmed down with blood points to similarities between her posession and the Sunbane... But she clearly talks about "him" - a him who hates Covenant, which wouldn't be the prime thing about her own Despiser, I'd say.

As for Foul appearing at the ceremony, I guess it's just a projection. But that doesn't matter much. Fouls isn't bound to his body, if he could brake free he surely wouldn't float among the stars in a human body. He gets one only for convenience I guess.
Still, the fact that Foul's mind reaches into the real world, allowing him to control all those fanatics is a breaking of the rules in my book. SRD took things are bit easy there.

Another thing: Foul never seemed to think that Covenant is the white gold. So wouldn't it be more reasonable for him to use his influence in the real world to get some other white gold into the Land? His power over the fanatics shows he isn't bound to Covenant or someone near and important to Covenant, so he should be able to influence just about any person.
Ok, so he's thirsty for revenge, but still... Get someone else's white gold, break free and THEN get revenge on Covenant would be the smart thing to do.

Im guessing Joan was possesed by a Raver, not Foul. We all have to remember that Foul wasnt acutally THERE in the real world, his image was merely projected there. Either that or, the AoT just prevents him from leaving the places the Creator made, that is of course, assuming the Creator did NOT make our Earth.

flawed, interesting................

I thought maybe Foul was using the Banefire directly to influence Joan, perhaps being the cause of her blood-thirst. What we'd previously been told about the Arch of Time would seem to rule out Foul taking possession of Joan himself, and it seems unlikely that any of the Ravers could cross the Arch if Foul himself couldn't. I'm wondering if there was an exlpanation at the time that I might have missed.

Or maybe SRD looked at it, thought 'hmm that doesn't quite compute', but then his pizza arrived and he forgot to smooth it over

Having seen Mouseglove's photos, I doubt that SRD eats a great deal of pizza.

I think that maybe even though Lord Foul was firmly imprisoned by the Arch of Time with the help of the Sunbane he was becoming so powerful in the Land that he was able to excert his power through like a beam of light through a very thick and dark chunk of glass. (It's weird comparing Foul to light.)

Also the nutty cultists may have had all the blame and accidentally, partially, and temporarily opened the way for Lord Foul. Lord Foul then used the opportunity to set them simple mind-control programs which would make them continue the cult and summon him again later. When he met Joan's spirit in the cult he made a special program just for her.

I think Joan was possessed by a Raver. I agree with Nerdanel about Lord Foul though.

Now that I think of it, I think Joan was indeed possessed by a raver. I think he needed the power of blood to stay in the Real World and tricked Covenant into giving it to him.

Now at the end of the Second Chronicles there might be only one raver in the Land and one in the Real World, playing a vampire. After all, in the Land there was never evidence of more than Gibbon and one other.

Nerdanel wrote:Now at the end of the Second Chronicles there might be only one raver in the Land and one in the Real World, playing a vampire. After all, in the Land there was never evidence of more than Gibbon and one other.

An interesting thought, but I believe that Linden, in healing the Land, felt the two raver's presences cowering in the depths of Mount Thunder.

No, there definitely were two ravers in Mount Thunder when they got there. That is stated quite clearly. And Gibbon was consumed by Nom.

I think that Foul could reach the earth because the keystone of the arch of time was there. I.e. as long as TC was on earth it was possible for Foul to reach it, sort of.

I really should read the books again... If it was a raver it Linden, it sounds like he came back.

Still, I can't but to wonder about the Third Chronicles. Perhaps Roger or that Linden's adopted autistic cultist child we've been hearing about will show a sudden desire for blood..?

yeah it alwasy seemed to me like he messed up, having Foul be able to reach Linden...but I just assume there's alot we don't know about the "physics" of the Land...about the Aot, ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol, TOT, all o' that....

When you think about Joan's Possession you should also think about the other members of the cult that Foul manipulated - He was able to control all of them, to make them provide power for the summoning - maybe it was through his increased strength, his new position as part of the corrupted Earthpower? He could project himself into Covenants world and use his power to torment him...

Welcome to the Watch Member251!! Be welcome and true!

Wow Sev, that's a really cool effect on your nic. Looks like it's on fire!

Also remember that when Covenant agreed to take Joan's place at the Banefire, whatever was possesing Joan left her body.

I don't recall who posted it, but someone said that Foul could have gotten someone else with white gold into the Land. I disagree. I think TC is unique simply in that he is a leper. Mhoram tells TC "You are the white gold." I don't think anyone else can make that claim. TC fit the bill for the paradox of the white gold.