Kevin's Watch

Guilt.

Guilt motivates many characters in the Chronicles. Covenant for any number of reasons, Linden towards her parents, Sunder, even Findail’s story of Kastenessen sounds like it’s self-justifying feelings of guilt. Master’s Scar, the first chapter of WGW, could be called a collision of the guilt that two characters feel.

The dromond Starfare’s Gem has left the lost island of the One Tree. Grimmand Honniscrave sits on the deck with his dead brother Cable Seadreamer.

Covenant has withdrawn to his cabin, shattered, recognizing how close he had come to destroying the world in the conflict with the Worm of the World’s End. Also, he is keeping something from Linden. Something he is too afraid to speak of.

Honniscrave, however, soon desires to speak with Covenant in his cabin. Cail tries to dissuade him, but he cannot be dissuaded from his purpose.

He tells Covenant a story of how Seadreamer came to get his scar across his face. Said Honniscrave “The fault of it was mine.” The scar that, Honniscrave fears, brought the Earth-Sight, and its voiceless terror, to his brother. A story of the guilt Honniscrave feels.

In their youth, Honniscrave and Seadreamer were prentice sailors. Among the prentice sailors of the Giants it was the custom to sail a course around the harbor of Home. Honniscrave was older in years, but less mature than his brother, sought glory in being the fastest to sail around the course. Without telling his brother, he tried a maneuver that backfired, the result of which was that a cable came swinging across their boat, striking Seadreamer so hard across the face, that it knocked him into the water, unconscious. Honniscrave had little recollection of the aftermath, believing that he had killed his brother.

He was not killed, but the event scared the Master.

Then Honniscrave tells Covenant his purpose:

“It is the custom of our people to give our dead to the sea. But Cable Seadreamer my brother has met his end in horror, and it will not release him. He is like the dead of the Grieve, damned to his anguish. If his spirit is not given it’s caamora ,” – for an instant his voice broke, “he will haunt me while one stone of the Arch of Time lies on another.”….. “Yet there is no fire in all the world that I can raise to give him surcease. He is a Giant. Even in death he is immune to flame.

This, however, Covenant cannot do. He came too close to destroying the world using the white gold. He can’t trust himself to use the power. He feels his own guilt. Covenant asks Honniscrave, “Are you out of your mind?”

Honniscrave replies, revealing his anguish and ending the chapter:

…. “Yes Giantfriend, the epithet held a tinge of sarcasm, “I am gone from my mind. You are the Ring-Wielder, as the Elohim have said. Your power threatens the Earth. What import has the anguish of one or two Giants in such a plight. Forgive me.”

I always wondered whether Thomas did the right thing, not helping Honniscrave... I mean I think should have done... I mean he controlled the Wild Magic fine at the Isle... even though he did nearly destroy the world... heh. But he seemed to have just enough control to give Seadreamer his caamora... what do you people think?

And.... ...

No, cremating the body of Cable Seadreamer wouldn't have given his soul the peace the Giants of Seareach/Coercri did. In this Honninscrave is mis-lead by his grief for his brother and other things. Covenant's fire is magic not true flame. When Giants perform a caamora; yes, they are searing their flesh but it is the pain that gives them relief. By manifesting their grief, anguish, anger, whatever! into the pain that the heat of a fire or coal (or hell, even graveling) will have on the flesh they are able to emotionally and mentally purge the hurt. Someone help me here with a quote I recall Foamfollower giving Covenant after the battle for Soaring Woodhelven in LFB. I theenk it's there.
Perhaps Covenant knew this instinctively, deep down inside just what a caamora really does for these noble beings, perhaps not. Yes he was fearful of unleashing his might but he also probably knew that it wouldn't do any good. Now he could've turned his fire upon the Master but then that wouldn't have probably helped either. We are responsible for our own grief(s) and we are also responsible for dealing with them. No-one can do it for us...because no-one can feel for us.
Honninscrave said that no-one knows why or how the Earthsight chooses one giant over the next. Only that it must be followed. Why? Does it drive the Giant who has it mad unless it is obeyed? Or do the Giants know that they must obey the Earthsight because their own existence lies at risk if they don't. Sooner or later what they don't do about it will come down upon them as well. In someways they're like Haruchai, willing to meet whatever challenges that come their way.

Honninscrave's tale gives us a brief (alibet sad) glimpse to the home of the Giants. One can imagine a huge harbor (fitting) that's probably more like a bay or a gulf to us humans, and homes and towns much like what you see anywhere people make their home and lives by the sea... just on a much larger scale. The buildings of course are all of stone and intricately carved doorways and roof-tops adorn all. Ah my heart, to see such a place.

Covenant has a bad habit of punishing himself badly for almost anything that goes wrong (Linden displays similar tendencies). In this case, Covenant probably blames himself for the crisis at the One Tree, believes that it came because he had been allowing himself to freely use the Wild Magic - he allowed himself to believe he had gained control of it, and that almost destroyed the world. Whether this is true or not, he no longer trusts himself to use the Wild Magic. So, when he is asked to do so, if only to give Honninscrave some comfort in his brother's death, he refuses - he believes that any use of his power now, while the venom is in him, is a step further down the path toward betrayal that Foul has lain for him.
The paradox in this is that it is Covenant's own guilt that prevents him using his power, his own guilt which makes any use of it a betrayal. In his machinations Foul uses Covenant's own nature against him

Spoiler

(though he obviously never knew enough about Linden)

- use of his power is all that can save the Land, but using it has the potential to destroy him through his own guilt. The refusal of Honninscrave is a continuation of the paradox Covenant has suffered under throughout the Chrons.

Yeah, I really don't understand why Thomas needs guilt so badly. It's not his fault, it's Lord Fouls fault, Thomas, a little bit of advice: Tear Foul's heart up, not your own.

Murrin wrote:The refusal of Honninscrave is a continuation of the paradox Covenant has suffered under throughout the Chrons.

-too true. Such a terribly sad chapter-will reread it today. Thank you very much Lord Damelon for starting off the 6th and, until recently, final book in the series in quality style.

I guess we now know where he got his first name

Damelon wrote:

Honninscrave wrote:"You are the Ring-Wielder, as the Elohim have said. Your power threatens the Earth. What import has the anguish of one or two Giants in such a plight. Forgive me.”

For me this is incredibly sad. What I always wondered is why Covenant couldn't ask Linden to do it. I understand why of course. He feels that the white gold is all that is left that makes him worth anything. And he feels that the responsibility for the Land should be on his shoulders. I just always wondered.

Sum sui generis
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[Pauses for applause for Damelon. Joins in.]

Quiz Question: Why is this chapter called The Master's Scar?

Spoiler

Even though Seadreamer wore the scar, Honninscrave, Master of Starfare's Gem, put it there - or so he feels.

So Honninscrave was all along carrying a guilt for Seadreamer's condition. This explains so much of his behavior at Elemesnedene, doesn't it? He's never stopped trying to make restitution. Having failed then, he must believe that he has one last chance to save his brother.

Darth Revan wrote:I always wondered whether Thomas did the right thing, not helping Honniscrave...

In one sense, it really doesn't matter. It's about what Honninscrave thinks he needs, and what Covenant thinks he cannot do, and how that makes both of them feel. You could contemplate what would have happened if, but this is one of those things that, if you change it, the rest of the story doesn't happen. Both Covenant and Honninscrave are now sent in certain necessary directions. And this is going to dovetail very nicely with something that happens in Sea of Ice.

Covenant's is an honest character decision: at this time he's too scared of himself, and too emotionally drained to consider difficult tasks.

Seafoam Understone wrote:No, cremating the body of Cable Seadreamer wouldn't have given his soul the peace the Giants of Seareach/Coercri did.

I believe that it would. If you credit that Seadreamer's soul is now roaming about suffering rather than being released, and if you credit that Covenant could find him now (two things which I personally don't credit), then he would be as the Giants of the Grieve. No ordinary fire could reach him, but the Wild Magic could -- that's one of the most fundamental reasons why what happened at Coercri meant so much.

Murrin wrote:In this case, Covenant probably blames himself for the crisis at the One Tree, believes that it came because he had been allowing himself to freely use the Wild Magic - he allowed himself to believe he had gained control of it, and that almost destroyed the world.

Well, Covenant is not without all blame there. It his his intransigence, and his need to be the focus of doom, that put the envenomed wild magic in the same room with the Worm of the World's End. He might have stayed on the boat! And Seadreamer was inflicted with the Earthsight because, decades ago, it was foreseen that Covenent would be just that mistaken. Then there's the fact that he tried to send Linden back to their home world -- did he need to do it then? He certainly let his needs and his emotions make decisions that put the entire Earth at risk. And finally, there is:

SRD wrote:He had withheld one important fact from her, hoping like a coward that it would prove unnecessary - that his desire for her would be permissible in the end. But by the lie of withholding he had accomplished nothing except her miscomprehension. Nothing except the Search's destitution and the Despiser's victory. He had let his need for her blind both of them.

When I think of the scar in this chapter I dont think Masters scar as the scar that Seadreamer carried but more the scar on Honniscraves soul. The scar of guilt for his part in what happened to his brother Seadreamer.

Can you imagine how it must have hurt Covenant to refuse Honniscrave? His Love of Giants and of Foamfollower was always forfront in his mind. He had always wished there was some way he could have saved his friend Foamfollower but was never able to. Now he is asked for this favor from a Giant and he ...............................refuses.


But he must have been crushed when Honniscrave replied with sarcasm.

What import has the anguish of one or two giants in such a plight? Forgive me."

At this point I want to grab Covenant and shake him "What are you thinking!~!!"

Everything and nothing
Hero and Fool
Potent and helpless
Mad and Sane
Cold and Passionate
Lost and Found

Should TC have cremated Seadreamer? Of course he should have, and that has been the story of Thomas Covenant throughout the chronicles. He see what is right and knows that he should do what is right but refuses time after time, out of fear or guilt or stubborness. His refusal of caamora for Seadreamer is inexcusable.

dlbpharmd wrote:Should TC have cremated Seadreamer? Of course he should have, and that has been the story of Thomas Covenant throughout the chronicles. He see what is right and knows that he should do what is right but refuses time after time, out of fear or guilt or stubborness. His refusal of caamora for Seadreamer is inexcusable.

Oh no no no...

We have to remember what Covenant just went thru. His defeat at the Isle has rendered him "impotent" once again. He nearly destroyed the Arch of Time and the Universe. Can he be blamed for fearing his own power now?? I don't think so.

"I'm already too dangerous" How could any of us live with such an identity. His power is overwhelming! Wild magic which destroys Peace. He was afraid of literally burning into the sea Starfare's Gem.

I disagree. Ask yourself this: Was the danger to the Arch of Time that fact that TC's power was so overwhelming or that the proximity of the wild magic to the One Tree (a part of the Worm, remember) almost roused the Worm?

TC hasn't lost complete control of the wild magic yet. He exercised trememdous control and restraint at the Isle. And with LA to guide him, I see no reason for him to refuse Honninscrave. After all, Seadreamer sacrificed himself to keep TC from physically touching the Tree. Would cremation for the Giant have been so difficult?

Spoiler

Of course, as we shall see, TC himself comes to regret his decision. Seadreamer's sould is damned, Honninscrave's guilt and despair drives him to his death in the heart of Revelstone, and a not-to-be-named Sandgorgon makes an evolutionary step that I'm sure will have consequences in the Final Chronicles.

My point is that TC constantly makes wrong decisions which always come back to haunt him. This one is the latest of many. I love TC, feel tremendous sympathy for him, defend him as much as anybody - but this time, he's dead wrong.

variol son wrote:For me this is incredably sad. What I always wondered is why Covenant couldn't ask Linden to do it.

I agree, this would be the best solution. The reason Covenant couldn't, of course, is that he has just been traumatized -- not only by his wild magic getting out of control at the One Tree, but by realizing that his plan to make a new Staff of Law is impossible. This was his one last hope, and he is now officially a failure. Linden is the new hope for the Land. To place his power under Linden's control at this point would be accepting his own demise.

Perhaps, but as he says later on, Mhoram was right. He should have saved Hamako, should've given Cable Seadreamer his caamora, because it was the right thing to do, regardless of the consequences. And as Mhoram tells Loerya and others in The Power That Preserves, the Land will not be undone be such choices.

Sum sui generis
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Right or wrong, Covenant made the only choice he could at the time. Personally, I wish he had honored Honniscrave's request, but I understand fully why he didn't...

dlbpharmd wrote:I disagree. Ask yourself this: Was the danger to the Arch of Time that fact that TC's power was so overwhelming or that the proximity of the wild magic to the One Tree (a part of the Worm, remember) almost roused the Worm?

Actually, it was both. Foul's strategy has multiple winning scenarios: Covenant destroys the arch; Covenant rouses the Worm and the Worm destroys the arch; Covenant fears himself so much he gives Foul the ring; Linden takes the ring; etc.

SRD wrote:He had withheld one important fact from her, hoping like a coward that it would prove unnecessary - that his desire for her would be permissible in the end. But by the lie of withholding he had accomplished nothing except her miscomprehension. Nothing except the Search's destitution and the Despiser's victory. He had let his need for her blind both of them.

By the way ... does anyone follow this logic?

This seems to be saying that withholding information from Linden, information about the continuity of their existence in the 'real' world (and that TC was still dying) somehow led to the failure of the quest to obtain the branch of the One Tree.

Do I have this correct? Can anyone explain how this follows from one to the other?

Anonymous wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:I disagree. Ask yourself this: Was the danger to the Arch of Time that fact that TC's power was so overwhelming or that the proximity of the wild magic to the One Tree (a part of the Worm, remember) almost roused the Worm?

Actually, it was both. Foul's strategy has multiple winning scenarios: Covenent destroys the arch; Covenant rouses the Worm and the Worm destroys the arch; Covenant fears himself so much he gives Foul the ring; Linden takes the ring; etc.

Not necessarily. The fact that Covenant used the wild magic whilst fighting the Clave would suggest that it was his proximity to the Worm, and not simply the use of the wild magic itself, that endangered the Arch of Time. Therefore he could have cremated Seadreamer if he could control the wild magic, which I doubt he could have done at that time and in those circumstances.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Wayfriend wrote:

SRD wrote:He had withheld one important fact from her, hoping like a coward that it would prove unnecessary - that his desire for her would be permissible in the end. But by the lie of withholding he had accomplished nothing except her miscomprehension. Nothing except the Search's destitution and the Despiser's victory. He had let his need for her blind both of them.

By the way ... does anyone follow this logic?

This seems to be saying that withholding information from Linden, information about the continuity of their existence in the 'real' world (and that TC was still dying) somehow led to the failure of the quest to obtain the branch of the One Tree.

Covenant feeling guilty again. I think every new guilt he feels brings the whole festering lump back to the surface.

There is one thread of thought in there that I haven't been able to narrow down. He tried to send Linden back without warning her, and it didn't work. If she could have saved his life, she would have, and then his "lie" -- that they could have a lifetime together -- wouldn't have been a lie at all... IF they could defeat Foul.

So what does that do to his guilt?

variol son wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:I disagree. Ask yourself this: Was the danger to the Arch of Time that fact that TC's power was so overwhelming or that the proximity of the wild magic to the One Tree (a part of the Worm, remember) almost roused the Worm?

Actually, it was both. Foul's strategy has multiple winning scenarios: Covenent destroys the arch; Covenant rouses the Worm and the Worm destroys the arch; Covenant fears himself so much he gives Foul the ring; Linden takes the ring; etc.

Not necessarily. The fact that Covenant used the wild magic whilst fighting the Clave would suggest that it was his proximity to the Worm, and not simply the use of the wild magic itself, that endangered the Arch of Time. Therefore he could have cremated Seadreamer if he could control the wild magic, which I doubt he could have done at that time and in those circumstances.

Sum sui generis
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Spoiler

When Covenant faces Gibbon later in this book, he would have had to unleash the wild magic in a way that would have certainly threatened the Arch. And, if TC had attempted to quench the Banefire with wild magic alone, the Arch would have surely fallen. So I don't believe that one can dispute that the envenomed Covenant was a danger to the arch. But I do believe, as you have written, that it was the proximity of the wild magic to the Worm that was the great danger at the One Tree.

True dlbpharmd. At the One Tree it was the proximity to the Worm that was the specific danger. Elsewhere, as long as he had control, as he did when facing Gibbon, then the danger was less. The problem is that I don't think he had control until much later through the first half of this book.

Sum sui generis
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