Kevin's Watch

So I was reading the chapter of White Gold Wielder that I am dissecting, and I started asking a couple of questions about the Waynhim and the ur-Viles.

We know (from Hamako) that there are only two kinds of Demondim spawn; the ur-Viles who loathe what they are and seek the power and knowledge to become what they are not, and the Waynhim who seek to give meaning to what they are by providing service to what they are not.

So I started thinking. Surely not every ur-Vile hates itself? Surely not every Waynhim chooses the path of peace and service? Surely not every ur-Vile serves Lord Foul? This lead me to ask how ur-Viles and Waynhim are created to be so different from each other.

We also know (from Hamako again) that the ur-Viles continue their breeding programmes in the catacombs beneath Mount Thunder, and that some of their creations are ur-Viles, some Waynhim. But why would the ur-Viles create more Waynhim? Especially since the Waynhim aren't considered the pinacle of the Demondim spawn. It just seems like a waste of time. Also, if the difference between ur-Vile and Waynhim is genetic, then wouldn't breeding programmes produce more strange hybrid creatures? Yet the only other Demondim spawn we see is Vain.

Perhaps, I thought, the ur-Viles simply produce a Demondim spawn, but have no control over which genetic variation they end up with. A kind of luck-of-the-draw thing.

Or perhaps, when each individual Demondim spawn is created, it looks at itself, realises that it "lacks the justification of birth", and then either loathes itself, or sees that despite the fact that it was made and not born it has the potential to give meaning to its existance through service, therefore deciding by its own choice whether it is ur-Vile or Waynhim.

So, what do y'all think?

Sum sui generis
Vs

Very interesting post Variol... You should try forwarding this too SRD himself.

I think the difference is genetic... as you mentioned. Like another creation of Mr. Donaldson... The Anmioni were superior and felt a need to conquer humans because it was genetic... same as Ur-Vile and Waynhim I think... bah, I'm spent. I'm not sure.

I don't think the ur-viles continued breeding. I believe only the demondim were capable of creating ur-viles and wayhnim. So when they were gone, there would be no more demondim-spawn.

The ur-viles worked on their lore under Mount Thunder. My guess is that they toiled in self loathing until the destruction of the first Staff of Law. That event gave them a purpose that helped reshape their "weird". They then turned their lore and experience toward the creation of Vain. I believe the only "evil" thing that they did in the second chronicles is try to wipe out the wayhnim. But they did that because they thought the wayhnim gave out (or would give out) the secret of Vain, which would nullify their newfound purpose in life.

And then Lord Foul found out that they created Vain, and punished them all by sunbane-warping them and sending them against the Search.

Romeo wrote:I don't think the ur-viles continued breeding. I believe only the demondim were capable of creating ur-viles and wayhnim. So when they were gone, there would be no more demondim-spawn.

But Hamako tells us in The Wounded Land that the ur-Viles continue their breeding projects, producing both Waynhim and ur-Viles.

Sum sui generis
Vs

My guess is that they toiled in self loathing until the destruction of the first Staff of Law. That event gave them a purpose that helped reshape their "weird". They then turned their lore and experience toward the creation of Vain

This has bugged me too. So the staff of law was destroyed and the ur-Viles decided that they were good guys? Vain essentially was the new Staff of Law so why did they want that so bad? Do they hate Foul now and want rid of the Sun-Bane and run with the Waynhim?

Maybe ...

The ur-Viles purpose was to have a new Staff of Law to unite them with the Waynhim and become whole beings ... like Pinocchio, maybe they were not happy with their "lot" as self loathing abominations and wanted to join their Yang with the Waynhim Yin, become real and whole with combined purpose ... Whatever the case, if the ur-Viles could create Vain i.e. half of the new Staff of Law, something which requires Earthpower incarnate (Findall) to complete, where, i wonder does their power get off!! Thats some pretty handy work from a bunch of eye-less slobs!! I want to see some Demondim/ur-Vile/Waynhim action in Runes, i think they are to big to relegate to subplot enemies of the state... Tell me more!!

variol son wrote:Surely not every ur-Vile serves Lord Foul?

I thought some more and came up with this. The ur-Viles would appear to be hierarchical in nature. They have lore-masters, who are chosen to be at the head of the wedges because they are more powerful than their fellow ur-Viles. Also, on the banks of Hatosh Slay, Mhoram mistakes samadhi Sheol in an ur-Vile's body for the supreme lore-master of all ur-Viles, thus suggesting, if not conclusively proving, that such a creature exists.

This of course would solve my above question. All the ur-Viles do serve Lord Foul, at least in the first chronicles, because they are creatures that follow a chain of command. They share the same wierd (a striving for more power and knowledge, born out of self-revulsion) and their leaders decide how that wierd may best be fulfilled.

So during the first chronicles it is best met by serving Lord Foul, who in return gives them whatever they need for their breeding projects. Then in the second, they create a perfect creature, who by its own perfection justifies itself in spite of its lack of birth, and Vain (and Findail, with Linden's help) becomes the new Staff of Law.

Perhaps they only served the Despiser so that they could learn what they needed to know to make Vain, and then rebelled in secret. Hmmmmmm.

In contrast, their is obviously more variation amongst the Waynhim, as each individual rhysh fulfils the wierd og the Waynhim in a different way.

Phew, thinking is hard work.

Sum sui generis
Vs

variol son wrote:So I was reading the chapter of White Gold Wielder that I am dissecting, and I started asking a couple of questions about the Waynhim and the ur-Viles.

We know (from Hamako) that there are only two kinds of Demondim spawn; the ur-Viles who loathe what they are and seek the power and knowledge to become what they are not, and the Waynhim who seek to give meaning to what they are by providing service to what they are not.

So I started thinking. Surely not every ur-Vile hates itself? Surely not every Waynhim chooses the path of peace and service? Surely not every ur-Vile serves Lord Foul? This lead me to ask how ur-Viles and Waynhim are created to be so different from each other.

. . . . .

Or perhaps, when each individual Demondim spawn is created, it looks at itself, realises that it "lacks the justification of birth", and then either loathes itself, or sees that despite the fact that it was made and not born it has the potential to give meaning to its existance through service, therefore deciding by its own choice whether it is ur-Vile or Waynhim.

I think that's very close to the truth. I don't know, of course, whether it's a conscious decision or merely the recognition of an innate characteristic; and of course, the question whether or not it's genetic simply has no application in this context. (Since Demondim-spawn are in effect manufactured, not bred, they don't have inherited traits the way other living things do. And I don't think I'm out of line in guessing that SRD has never inquired into the details of Demondim DNA.)

It may be rather like the various schools of thought on homosexuality. There are those who believe one is born gay, but even the hardliners of this school admit that there has to come some point in life when one becomes consciously aware of the fact. On the other hand, there are those who believe that (whether for genetic or environmental reasons) one has the potential for homoeroticism, and whether one acts on that potential is at least to some degree a matter of choice. The second explanation has the advantage of applying to the large numbers of people who experiment with homosexual activity in adolescence and then give it up and live their lives as straights; and I think it has a similar advantage, mutatis mutandis, if you apply it to the Demondim.

Roughly speaking, if this theory applies, every Demondim-spawn is created with the potential urge to submit to 'the dark side of the Weird', as it were, to loathe itself and its kind, and to join in the breeding program. Those that submit to this urge are ur-viles; those that do not become Waynhim. I surmise that Demondim-spawn have their full physical and mental capacity the moment they come out of the vat, and therefore that this choice is about the first thing they do in life. None of this tedious waiting about for the crises of adolescence.

By the way, I don't suppose I'm the only one who notices strong points of resemblance between the ur-viles and the Amnion. Am I?

Didn't SRD answer a question in the GI about the ur-viles defection? I've tried to find it but can't. Anyone remember?

We know that the Ur-Viles cooperate with Lord Foul, mostly, but that they definitely have their own agenda. This is most clearly seen in their creation of Vain and the subsequent punishment inflicted on them.

I also think your are wrong in using the word 'breeding'. I have always thought of the viles, the demondim, the ur-viles and the waynhim as created beings. The corruption of natural law might have stopped that and this might be the reason why they decided to create the new staff of law.

Sorry, I realize that they are all created, but since the term "breeding-dens" is used in the chronicles, I used the term breeding here as I couldn't think of a more appropriate word.

Sum sui generis
Vs

I realise that and I just wanted to make the point that we are not dealing with any kind of natural process here. Obviously the art of making creatures like that was well known in the time of the old lords, although maybe not very widely practiced.