Kevin's Watch

I've often wondered how SRD would have had to resolve the menace of Lord Foul's sunbane if Linden didn't accompany TC to the Land. If given the same circumstances how could Covenant have healed the Land without the healthsense? Is there anyone else that might have had enough perception to step in in Linden's place. Seadreamer? Hollian? How would conditions have changed without Linden's influence at the beginning of the story? Could Covenant have found a way to put pressure or combat Foul directly to force him to relinquish his hold over the Land? Would Vain and the Elohim have acted differently toward Covenant without Linden?
I assume things would be radically different and virtually hopeless if Linden had not been around for a great many of the events and the ultimate healing of the Land.

He would have made it to Revelstone but would have fried in the Banefire until he died on the altar in real life. (What a wonderful image, eh? )

danlo wrote:He would have made it to Revelstone but would have fried in the Banefire until he died on the altar in real life. (What a wonderful image, eh? )

Well that wouldn't have been very entertaining except for Lord Foul laughing his head off.

I can't really give an answer to this question. It's like saying "would the land have coped if TC wasn't summoned there in the first chronicals?"

Well see, that's my point! W/o healthsense he would have lashed out at things he didn't understand. Much sooner than later he would have destroyed the AofT... (|T ..with this here thingy... )

The Exacerbater wrote:I can't really give an answer to this question. It's like saying "would the land have coped if TC wasn't summoned there in the first chronicals?"

Way to use that imagination, Dude.

I think that the Creator's choice to send Linden as well as Covenant indicated that Covenant could not have done it alone. At its root, this is similar to the question of Troy being in Covenant's place.

I'd say the result would be Covenant having a false sense of security and hope in the beginning by virtue of being the only one chosen this time around. Would the bereavement of Earthsight be more damaging if he didn't have Linden's to contrast it? Marid's venom, if it was required at all, would not seem so dire at first. Knowing he had nothing to lose, his life already forfeit at the altar, nothing would hold him back. The knowledge he gained of himself as well as the need to save Joan would give him impetus enough to use the White Gold. Of course, all this would just set himself up for Foul to knock him down.

Assuming he didn't destroy himself before the final confrontation or that he wouldn't be left in a permanent comatose state by the Elohim, he might still sacrifice himself to defeat Foul (nothing to lose, right?). But it would take some serious work by Donaldson to convince us that Covenant could heal the land, the permanency of his affliction and the necessity of him living with it having too much inertia at this point.

Heh... I like the "what-if" questions

Well, the Chronicles would have surely been different, that's obvious Foul probably would have chosen another plan rather than trusting in Marid's venom (he wouldn't have needed Marid, since Covenant, as said before, would have only needed to be brought to a crisis). Also, Covenant wouldn't have had to worry about Linden and divert some of his energies towards planning a way for her to return home and heal his body; he would have focused himself completely on destroying Foul, fueling his anger with all the Land had suffered and his loss of healthsense, and blissfully disregarding all other problems and questions that Linden pointed out from time to time.

Most probably, he would have marched on to Revelstone (or he would have been captured by some Stonedown - possibly Mithil - and sent to the Clave with a Rider), and there, he might have been enthralled by Gibbon (since in these "what-if Chronicles", there would have been no kidnapping of Linden, and therefore he wouldn't have had any reasons to mistrust the Clave save for the apparent corruption of lore) and ultimately played for a fool by Foul, maybe being brought to Kiril Threndor by Gibbon (with some sort of contrived excuse, like "my, you're right, there's a common foe! I'll give you some of my men, why don't you go there and splat him?").

Even if, somehow, he had found out the truth about the Clave and Foul, and had decided to go on a quest to make a new Staff of Law, he could have perished - or worse - on several occasions, such as in the Sarangrave, for example. Of course, the Elohim would have been extremely dismayed - not only the Sun-sage and the Ring-wielder wouldn't have been the same, but the Sun-sage wouldn't have existed at all!

Probably, even if Covenant had managed to reach the Elohim, they would have wrested the ring from him, or compelled him to give it to them, since without the Sun-sage, they would have believed there would be no other option. Even if Covenant would have overcome this, he would have probably had to contend with the Bhrathair and Kasreyn of the Gyre; and even if that had been somehow sidestepped or overcome, he would have probably used wild magic to try and wrest a branch of the One Tree and, without Linden's sight, would have awakened the Worm.

Even if, by some reason (maybe he would have listened to Seadreamer?), he had managed not to awaken the Worm, he would have probably perished during the battle of the Waynhim, since without Linden, he would have been unable to discern the croyel; and so on...
I think that kind of suggests my thoughts on the topic The odds of Covenant spontaneously overcoming all of those situations without contrived "help" by the author would have been nonexistant; hence, if SRD had written the Second Chronicles without Linden, the book would have probably been extremely forced and clearly "bullied" into a certain story

Syl, Xar, Great points. I had considered much of what each of you have written. Without Linden Covenant would have been sorely in need of guidance and without some alteration in the scenerio Covenant would have most likely failed before he ever made his way to Revelstone. I believe that Covenant's dead would have found a way around the absence of Linden. I can't say what that would be but they held the key to the solution of the sunbane and it may have been within their power to come up with an alternative that would have made sense.

He would have died in the very beginning... as Linden saved his life many times...

Darth Revan wrote:He would have died in the very beginning... as Linden saved his life many times...

I submit that Linden's very presence in the beginning was more of a hinderance than a boon but her value skyrocketed in a very short time. Her disorientation and shock was probably useful to TC as a distraction from some of the bigger issues.

Darth Revan wrote:He would have died in the very beginning... as Linden saved his life many times...

Took the words right out of my mouth, as did others. He would have died at Revelstone, if not before. Linden's healthsense was essential to them even getting there, and essential to the understanding that while the fertile sun looked like a good thing, it was evil and abhorrent.

Yes - Covenant most likely would have died the night after the confrontation at Crystal Stonedown.

dlbpharmd wrote:Yes - Covenant most likely would have died the night after the confrontation at Crystal Stonedown.

Are we talking about the same guy who lucked out through 3 whole books worth of tight spots and close calls, all without Linden?
My point is one way or another Covenant probably would have found or gotten help in one form or another.

Yes, we are talking about the same guy. Remember, he also had LOTS of help (LOTS) in those first three books, plus he had the healthsense that he lacked in the 2nd chronicles.

It's very clear that Linden's presence in the 2nd Chronicles is not only necessary, but if she wasn't there, Foul would have claimed the white gold for himself and we wouldn't have a Last Chronicles to be looking forward to.

Pose the question to SRD himself in his gradual interview. He'd give the same answer, albeit better written and more insightful.

The 2nd Chrons seem to require Linden.

If a question about this topic were posed to SRD, I'd be more interested to know if the solution (LA with TC, now let's make Linden necessary) came first, or the problem (the Sunbane, TC can't handle it on his own, oh he needs a companion!)

Eh... He probably would say he can't tell how it came together. But sometimes he surprises us

My guess is that he came up with the idea of a "wounded land" (even though he says that was Lester's title, I think it's a *terrific* title), and a wounded land necessitates TCs immunity to it, and his lack of the earth/healthsense. Someone else was needed that could have it.

Still, you're right, it would be interesting to here what SRD had to say about that. What came first?

TOM C wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:Yes - Covenant most likely would have died the night after the confrontation at Crystal Stonedown.

Are we talking about the same guy who lucked out through 3 whole books worth of tight spots and close calls, all without Linden?
My point is one way or another Covenant probably would have found or gotten help in one form or another.

Bannor and Foamfollower both saved TC's bacon from physical dangers several times. But the night at Crystal Stonedown was different. LA gave Covenant strength to make it through the night until Hollian could help him. The only other time before that I can think of that TC was that close to death was when he ate amanibhavam and was rescued by the Unfettered Healer in Morinmoss.

dlbpharmd wrote:

TOM C wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:Yes - Covenant most likely would have died the night after the confrontation at Crystal Stonedown.

Are we talking about the same guy who lucked out through 3 whole books worth of tight spots and close calls, all without Linden?
My point is one way or another Covenant probably would have found or gotten help in one form or another.

Bannor and Foamfollower both saved TC's bacon from physical dangers several times. But the night at Crystal Stonedown was different. LA gave Covenant strength to make it through the night until Hollian could help him. The only other time before that I can think of that TC was that close to death was when he ate amanibhavam and was rescued by the Unfettered Healer in Morinmoss.

That's all true and in those times with Bannor and Foamfollower's help Linden Avery was no where to be found and though it was different circumstances the fact remains our hero soldiered on. Other characters might take the supporting role from Linden in the Second Chrons. Perhaps characters that aren't the type to raise frustration on the part of the reader. The kind that don't inspire the creation of a THOOLAH cult.

Maybe this thread is just wish fulfillment on my part. Maybe I'd like to think of a Second Chronicles being devoid of Linden Avery just to make myself feel better.
I honestly can't remember thinking that way when I created this thread almost 4 years ago. How times change.

Remember that the Elohim did not expect the White Gold Wielder to be a person separate from the Sun-Sage. But that doesn't mean they were right... and the Creator added Linden to the mix for a reason.

If she had not come across with him, Covenant probably would have gotten his HealthSense back when he reappeared in the Land, and something about that combination would have been insufficient to succeed at BOTH tasks. The Elohim thought it was essential to the healing of the Land for SunSage to be the WildWielder, but they were focused exclusively on fighting the SunBane, not defeating Foul. Linden could not have defeated Foul, but Covenant could not have healed the SunBane, with or without HealthSense.

The shadow on the heart of the Elohim is their realisation that they cannot exist without Lord Foul - because he was made part of the Earth, and as such he is one note in the Earthpower symphony that the Elohim dance to. [and consequently, he cannot be destroyed while the Earth stands.]

dw