Kevin's Watch

SRD wrote:Do you doubt me? Look at Troy's "accomplishments." If Mhoram hadn't saved his bacon at the edge of Garroting Deep, his decisions would have effectively destroyed the Lords' ability to defend the Land. He's just too damn innocent. He hasn't learned the self-doubt, the humility, that makes Covenant hesitate, or that makes Mhoram wise.

What taught Mhoram self-doubt? He encountered the Raver near Foul's Creche between LFB and TIW (right?), but he seemed wise before that... ?

Covenant? Good genes? Vision?

I agree, Believer, Mhoram did already seem wise. His fellow Lords always had more faith in him than he did, but Mhoram had an ability to totally commit that made him (or at least helped to make him) unopposable. My first thought was events like the death of his parents - basically, occasions when he hasn't done something he feels he should have done - but these occur once he already has wisdom and self-doubt. I suspect both of these aspects of his character grew during the decades of war against the Despiser, but he already carried an element of that with him when we first met in in LFB.

When Mhoram first spoke to Covenant in LFB (and I'm too lazy to go into the other room and dig the book out to get quotes), it was very obvious that he possessed a wisdom and maturity far beyond his years. I was as susrprised as Covenant to find, in The Illearth War, that Mhoram was not the High Lord. Boy did the Lords make a mistake with her. (Just my opinion.)

Mhoram was just "one of those guys" that has it together, and who sees the big picture.

He was also a little too much like Gandalf - especially with his encounter with the Raver (direct from Tolkien, as Gandalf himself went into Dol Goldur before Sauron declared himself and returned to Barad-dur, and their experiences were fairly identical). Both of them possessed two identical qualities: wisdom, and humility.

The latter of those two qualities is probably why they were both my favorite characters in each series. A man who holds great power, yet is humble, is impressive to me.

After reading my post, I realized it might be construed as sexist, seeing that I said "one of those guys". In my experience, "gals" usually have it together better than "guys".

The quote that sums up Mhoram is this..."It takes great strength to judge the weaknesses of others. I am not so mighty".

Mhoram was never comfy in his role as seer, but it was part of what made him so humble... to be subject to a vision from without, or outside. When he lost his ability to "see" in that sense...he came to doubt. Not only that but perhaps more importantly he came to doubt himself over the fact that he felt unable to share his knowledge of the "ritual of desecration", fearing that the sharing of the knowledge would cause the lords to despair (the oath of peace was unduly inflexible).

The very fiber of his being was in question until he placed all of his faith in his own actions unfettered by the oath (lord Mhormas Victory)...man I just got a chill. Perhaps the greatest of all the High Lords, Loric and Berek included.

Mhoram is easily the most honorable, most complete in wisdom and awareness that SRD has written.

Burgs...I think the reason Mhorma was not chosen was because of the hunger the land had to defeat the despiser. Every Lord knew Elena's heritage. That alone caused her to rise to the High Lordship.

burgs66 wrote:After reading my post, I realized it might be construed as sexist, seeing that I said "one of those guys". In my experience, "gals" usually have it together better than "guys".

Which is just another sexist comment, the other way round. Harrumph.



Actually, I've known hundreds of assorted lunatics and weirdos in the last fifteen years, and a fair smattering of 'normal' people. (The 'normal' ones are those whose craziness does not prevent them from leading productive lives.) In my experience — and I've got more of it than I ever wanted or meant to have — men are more likely to go off the rails, but women often make far bigger messes when they do go off. It doesn't help that a lot of the fouled-up women I've known were single mothers with no sense of responsibility for their children. That's pretty much guaranteed to produce two crazy people.

But enough of that. To drag myself back in the direction of the topic:


We really don't have enough information to tell where Mhoram got either his wisdom or his humility, but it's possible to construct stories that might explain it. As far as we can tell, he was an only child, and his parents were fairly well on in years when he was born. Mhoram would have grown up largely in the company of adults, and Lords and Lorewardens at that; this is a good way to force-grow the intellect and character of a child with the right kind of potential. And while the subject (or victim) of this upbringing can turn out ferociously spoilt, it's also possible for him to develop a permanent sense of his own smallness, derived from comparing himself to the far more capable and experienced (and larger) people by whom he was surrounded when he was growing up.

Another trait frequently found in only children is a deep sense of social alienation. Mhoram never married, and seems to have had no close friends except for the other Lords and perhaps the Elders of the Loresraat. This kind of radical loneliness can bring out all kinds of psychological oddities, especially in childhood and adolescence; strange talents manifest themselves. John Lennon, also a precocious only child raised by a tribe of comparatively elderly aunts, said of his childhood: 'I saw loneliness.' He had visions, or hallucinations, that profoundly affected all his later work. No doubt it was during the long, solitary holidays of his childhood that Mhoram began to discover his power of prevision. Where the young Lennon 'saw loneliness', the young Mhoram saw the Despiser coming back to life.

Well, that is one possible explanation, perhaps. Others could be devised.

So what separates Atiaran from Mhoram?

I assume the self-doubt SRD mentioned applied to Covenant, and the humility part to Mhoram. Or maybe they both have self-doubt and humility? I wouldn't be surprised if Mhoram did, what with all the challenges he faced and the impossible odds/lives at stake.

Mhoram tells us that he hears the Despiser laughing in his dreams. Of all the Lords, he alone has truly felt Lord Foul's contempt for the Council.

He also knows that the Lords are weak, that they have failed to penetrate Kevin's Lore, and that Trothgard remains blighted and striken from the affects of the war between Foul and Kevin. Therefore, even before he met Covenant, Mhoram must have doubted his ability to defeat the Despiser, and to resist the despair that failing may bring.

I notice that this attitude seems to be shared, in part at least, by Prothal, Osondrea, Tamarantha, and Variol. they are very aware of their weakness, of their failure to penetrate Kevin's Lore. What little we know of them seems to suggest that they share Mhoram's humilty and wisdom, even if they do not share his visionary fire, or his paradoxical danger and humanity.

In contrast, Elena appears to be rather proud, and obviously not terribly wise. Or maybe it's not so much pride as naivety. Other Lords such as Verement, Shetra, and, as far as naivety goes, Callindrill and possibly even Hyrim, also seem to have a hint of this. Perhaps becoming Lords after the recovery of the Staff of Law and the Second Ward reduced their capacity for humility, andtherefore wisdom, somewhat.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Ahh.....another excellent thread at the Watch. I love this place and all you people!

As far as Elena is concerned, yes, she showed her lack of wisdom in all her choices. Her "other" sight dominated her. Part of what made her who she was, and perhaps the part that gave her a false sense of security, in my opinion, is the fact that Covenant was her father. How could she fail in her choices with the blood of the Land's hero reborn flowing through her veins?

And, I think that it is Mhoram's weakness that made him strong. He understood his weaknesses, he knew his limits, and yet at all turns he was willing to go beyond his knowledge of himself. He may have had self-doubt, but he used that as a source for determination and success.

One of my concerns while reading the first chronicles, was the Ravers. Why did the Lords not concentrate on rejuvenating the life of the Forests? Perhaps with a renewed spirit, the interdict of the Colossus would have reawakened, again banishing the Ravers from the upper Land.
Had the Lords found a way to contain the Ravers, Lord Foul would not have been so dominant abroad.

But I digress. My apologies for going off-topic.

Don't apologize ur-bane, you make some excellent points.

I have always thought that Elena's parentage was one of the reasons that she became High Lord. Who better to lead the Council than the daughter of the white gold wielder, wouldn't you think.

Of course, with the exception of Mhoram, no one on Elena's council understood Covenant at all, so no one could fully understand that being his daughter might be a bad thing.

I believe that Prothal's council comprehended Covenant far better, each in their own ways, even though they knew less about him.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Caer Sylvanus wrote:So what separates Atiaran from Mhoram?

Atiaran fell into despair...she lacked faith.

Suberb postings variol son and ur-bane! You guys have struck the heart of the matter. I'm so into dissecting Mordant and WGW that I've forgotten those simple facts way back in LFB!

vs wrote:Mhoram tells us that he hears the Despiser laughing in his dreams.

And the weakness of the council. (**kicks self for being, well, kinda dense ** )

I think of Elena's being High Lord as the Council's attempt to use one of the Despiser's tactics... She had the greatest potential for both harm and hurt, just as Covenant did. She was simultaneously the Land's greatest hope and its bane.

It's sort of like Anakin Skywalker.

ur-bane wrote:Ahh.....another excellent thread at the Watch. I love this place and all you people!

As far as Elena is concerned, yes, she showed her lack of wisdom in all her choices. Her "other" sight dominated her. Part of what made her who she was, and perhaps the part that gave her a false sense of security, in my opinion, is the fact that Covenant was her father. How could she fail in her choices with the blood of the Land's hero reborn flowing through her veins?

And, I think that it is Mhoram's weakness that made him strong. He understood his weaknesses, he knew his limits, and yet at all turns he was willing to go beyond his knowledge of himself. He may have had self-doubt, but he used that as a source for determination and success.

One thing about Elena. She of all the High-Lords, seems to intuitively guess (though she never articulated it) as her actions bore the proof...was that the oath of peace was the barrier between the Lords and the understanding of Kevin's Lore. Her inituitive action however was not counter-balanced by true wisdom.

Had Mhoram discovered the Power of Command, he would not have hastily quaffed a deep draft of the stuff. Also, had the other lords been WITH Elena at the time, the melding would have given her a measure of self-restraint, courtesy of the other lords, that she lacked. She was a daughter of rape who had an electra complex. Yipes.

Psst... You might want to close a quote or something.

Believer wrote:It's sort of like Anakin Skywalker.

Do you mean Hayden Christensen's acting?

(he was acting? )

danlo wrote:(he was acting? )

Not very well in that case.