Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:07 pm**

Hi all...first topic posted so be gentle.

Recently on the GI, SRD said:

Is there anything in the "Covenant" books to suggest that the Giants possess a written language?

I've been chewing on this one...we never see the Giants write anything down, it's true, but they have maps, and I can't see maps being much use without some form of annotation.

Maybe this is what happened with the Unhomed...they hit a big storm, it made a mess of their cabins and when they tidied up the maps they had a choice of four directions as to which way was north? No wonder they got lost!

What do people think?

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:33 pm**

This answer really bothers me, also. It almost seems that SRD is answering "tongue in cheek" - he tends to do that with questions that he deems irrelevent to the story. For example, the original question was in regards to Seadreamer's lack of using writing to communicate. His answer seems to say "Seadreamer didn't write down what he wanted to say because I didn't write that he did."

For a race to have been granted a gift of tongues by the Elohim, it seems unlikely for that same race to not be able to communicate in writing. However, I am unable to recall a specific mention of the use of maps on Starfare's Gem. The only time I can think of that Honniscrave used a map was when the Elohim silenced Covenant at the Elohimfest. But how can any sea-faring people not make use of maps? And as you mentioned, maps by definition must have some kind of annotation.

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:38 pm**

But their emphasis on oral stories seems to indicate that they are a verbal, rather than a writing people...

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:22 pm**

There are some mentions of charts in C13 of The One Tree. Linden is asked to go to the Master's cabin, where she sees his attention is on his table:

Its top was level with her eyes and covered with rolls of parchment and vellum which made small crinkling noises when he opened or closed them.
"Chosen," he said, " we are gathered here to take counsel.We must choose our way from this place. Here is the matter before us." He unrolled a chart; then, realizing she could not see it, closed it again.

and a bit later on:

Reopening his chart, he held it over the edge of the table so that she could see it. "By the chance of the storm, we now approach the littoral of Bhrathairealm, where dwell the Bhrathair in the Sandhold against the Great Desert. He indicated a spot on the chart...

and one more:

Galewrath glanced at the Master, then said in a les assertive voice "It may be. At times land will lie nigh our course. But much of what is marked on these charts is obscure, explored neither by Giants nor those who have told tales to Giants."

From which it seems reasonable to say that these are maps, and annotated. Argueably it could be purely pictoral representation, but I would have thought that it would require a written key of some sort.

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:26 pm**

Thanks, Gart. I agree with your conclusions.

Posted: **Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:51 pm**

Wait a minute...possessing maps automatically means you possess a written language? Then why do the Giants bother gathering around to hear stories when they could just dig out their copies of "Tales of Bahgoon and Thelma" and sit in a quiet corner to read? Where are the libraries?

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:43 am**

Isn't there some mention of giantish writing on the tops of the walls of the Keep? I could have dreamt that, but something tells me there was...I'll look for a quote on that one.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:25 pm**

Matrixman wrote:Wait a minute...possessing maps automatically means you possess a written language? Then why do the Giants bother gathering around to hear stories when they could just dig out their copies of "Tales of Bahgoon and Thelma" and sit in a quiet corner to read? Where are the libraries?

For that matter, why do people bother going to theatres to see Hamlet when they could just sit in a quiet corner with the script?

Dramatic recitation is a very old and highly-regarded art form in itself. Even in Western culture, huge bodies of folklore were handed down exclusively by oral tradition until about the early 19th century, when scholars (the Brothers Grimm are the best-known example) attempted to take them down systematically in writing. That doesn't mean that Western culture had no written languages before the 19th century!

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:40 pm**

I'm inclined to agree. A story well told is a completely different experience to a story well written. Also, there seems to be a strong community element to group storytelling.

Posted: **Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:24 pm**

Good point from Variol. I stand corrected.

Posted: **Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:12 am**

Maybe they could write, but it took a long time to do so. If Giant conversations took a long time, then I imagine writing would be even longer. Also, where would Seadreamer get his paper from? Maybe it took a long time to make paper, so they only used it for things that would last a long time e.g. maps.

Posted: **Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:33 am**

Iryssa wrote:Isn't there some mention of giantish writing on the tops of the walls of the Keep? I could have dreamt that, but something tells me there was...I'll look for a quote on that one.

Yet when he looked at his companions, saw the rapt faces of the Giants, his anger loosened slightly. The Keep had the power to entrance them. Pitchwife's mien was wide with the glee of appreciation; the First's eyes shone pride at the handiwork of her long-dead people; Mistweave gazed upward hungrily, all dismay forgotten for a time. Even Honnioscrave had momentarily lost his air of doom, as though he knew intuitively that Revelstone would give him a chance to make restitution.

Conflicting passions rose in Covenant's throat. Thickly, he asked, "Can you read it? Do you know what it means? I've been here three times"--four counting the brief translation during which he had refused Mhoram's summons--"but no one's ever been able to tell me what it means."

For a moment, none of the Giants answered. They could not step back from the wonder of the Keep- They had seen Coercri in Seareach and marveled at it; but for them Revelstone was transcendent. Watching them. Covenant knew with a sudden pang that now they would never turn back--that no conceivable suasion would induce them to set their Search and their private purposes aside, to leave the Sunbane and Lord Foul to him. The Sunbane had eroded them in fundamental ways, gnawing at their ability to believe that their Search might actually succeed. What could Giants do to aid a Land in which nature itself had become the source of horror?
But the sight of Revelstone restored them to themselves. They would never give up their determination to fight.

Unless Covenant found his own answer soon, he would not be able to save them. Swallowing heavily, Pitchwife murmured, "No words. There
are none. Your scant human tongue is void--*" Tears spread through the creases of his face, mapping his emotion.
But the First said for him, "All tongues, Giantfriend. All tongues lack such language. There is that in the granite glory of the world's heart which may not be uttered with words. All other _expression must be dumb when the pure stone speaks. And here that speech has been made manifest. Ah, my
heart!" Her voice rose as if she wanted to both sing and keen. But for her also no words were adequate. Softly, she concluded, "The Giants of the Land were taught much by their loss of Home. I am humbled before them."

For a moment. Covenant could not respond. But then a memory came back; to him--a recollection of the formal salutation that the people of Revelstone had formerly given to the Giants. Hail and welcome, inheritor of Land's loyalty. Welcome whole or hurt, in boon or bane--ask or give. To any requiring name we will not fail. In a husky voice, he breathed:

"Giant-troth Revelstone, ancient ward--
Heart and door of Earthfriend's main:
Preserve the true with Power's sword,
Thou ages-Keeper, mountain-reign."

At that, the First turned toward him; and for an instant her face was concentrated with weeping as if he had touched her deep Giantish love of stone. Almost immediately she recovered her sternness--but not before he had seen how absolutely she was ready now to serve him. Gruffly, she said, "Thomas Covenant, I have titled you Giantfriend, but it is not enough. You are the Earthfriend. No other name suffices."
Then she went and put her arms around her husband. ~from White Gold Wielder

Sniff... gimme a moment here..... (love that scene).....

Ok, so clearly from the green highlighted passage the Giants were able to READ the message/story/passages in the construction of the stones themselves. Kinda like a puzzle that only Giants can figgure out. The Giants of the Search were able to read the tale in the manner of the stones themselves and how they were put together.
My take on it is that as intelligent beings goes the Giants surely had written languages. But it is their love of TELLING tales as well as the tales themselves that allows them to share the story in both mediums.
Also since the Elohim gave the Giants the gift of tongues it would logically be assumed that they'd be able to read any language as well as speak/understand it. In order to do that one must have a base language to start from to comprehend how written language is composed (in general) though structure, grammar, punctuation and so forth would vary from place to place the Giants would be able to read whatever they come across. It stands to reason that they would write/read as well... They're far too intelligent for them NOT to have any type of written language.

Posted: **Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:49 am**

Seafoam Understone wrote:
For a moment. Covenant could not respond. But then a memory came back; to him--a recollection of the formal salutation that the people of Revelstone had formerly given to the Giants. Hail and welcome, inheritor of Land's loyalty. Welcome whole or hurt, in boon or bane--ask or give. To any requiring name we will not fail. In a husky voice, he breathed:

"Giant-troth Revelstone, ancient ward--
Heart and door of Earthfriend's main:
Preserve the true with Power's sword,
Thou ages-Keeper, mountain-reign."

At that, the First turned toward him; and for an instant her face was concentrated with weeping as if he had touched her deep Giantish love of stone. Almost immediately she recovered her sternness--but not before he had seen how absolutely she was ready now to serve him. Gruffly, she said, "Thomas Covenant, I have titled you Giantfriend, but it is not enough. You are the Earthfriend. No other name suffices."
Then she went and put her arms around her husband. ~from White Gold Wielder
Sniff... gimme a moment here..... (love that scene).....

One of my all time favourite passages. Had to wipe away a tear here myself

Posted: **Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:02 pm**

Thank you, Seafoam, that is a great scene, but one that has always confused me, because I cannot remember an instance in 1st Chronicles where a "pattern" in the walls of Revelstone is mentioned. Can someone help me out?

Posted: **Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:59 pm**

It's mentioned when Covenant first sees Revelstone, in LFB.

A surprising distance from the tower, the entire cliff face had been worked by the Old Giants - sheered and crafted into a vertical outer wall for the city, which, Covenant later learned, filled this whole, wedge-shaped promontory of the plateau. The wall was intricately laboured - lined and coigned and seried with regular and irregular groups of windows, balconies butresses - orieled and parapeted - wrought in a prolific and seemingly spontaneous multitude of details which appeared to be on the verge of crystallizing into a pattern. But light flashed and anced on the polished cliff face, and the wealth of variation in the work overwhelmed Covenant's senses, so that he could not grasp whatever pattern might be there.

Posted: **Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:30 pm**

Thanks!

Posted: **Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:17 pm**

Thanks, guys! I realized shortly after saying that I would look-up those passages that I had lent my books to a friend...I'd planned on borrowing my boyfriend's books, but he lives in another town, so it would've been a few days yet....thanks so much!

Posted: **Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:57 am**

Gart wrote:It's mentioned when Covenant first sees Revelstone, in LFB.
A surprising distance from the tower, the entire cliff face had been worked by the Old Giants - sheered and crafted into a vertical outer wall for the city, which, Covenant later learned, filled this whole, wedge-shaped promontory of the plateau. The wall was intricately laboured - lined and coigned and seried with regular and irregular groups of windows, balconies butresses - orieled and parapeted - wrought in a prolific and seemingly spontaneous multitude of details which appeared to be on the verge of crystallizing into a pattern. But light flashed and anced on the polished cliff face, and the wealth of variation in the work overwhelmed Covenant's senses, so that he could not grasp whatever pattern might be there.

Here it shows that while TC could not disconcern any pattern (for lack of study due to being overwhelmed) SRD does hint that there is... with the quote from WGW we can see that the Giants of the Search were able to see a pattern but readable to their eyes only because it was their language to begin with.
I presume that the Giants of Seareach basically went ahead and agreed to build Revelstone the way that they did (and privately... for their own reasons) in hopes that in the future other Giants will know their tale should a group of them find their way to the Land (like the Search did).
Foamfollower is probably the best (and only) example of the Seareach/Coercri Giants that we have and reading him and the manner he speaks of the Unhomed shows at least a glimpse of what the Search Giants read in the stone of the Keep, though they could not articulate it because they were... overwhelmed.
It can be reasoned then that the Giant's form of written language was the way they worked with stone. I would hazard a guess that the Dromond Starfare's Gem probably was able to tell it's own tale simply by the way the stone was put together to build the vessel.
Like the fictional characters of the Matrix they were able to read and comprehend the binary language presented to them and make out images and whatever because they learned how to "see". It would be a good guess that this is how the Giants were able to leave behind a more permanent record of whatever they wanted simply by pattern-ing the stone to tell what needed to be said, thus a visual language, it would just take time to learn how to "see" it. A good example of comparison I can think of is how American Sign Language is to the Deaf and how hearing people see it. Also, believe it or not, any form of writing is a visual language. Egyptian hieroglyphics is another good example.

Posted: **Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:42 am**

I found this quote in WGW, Chapter 11 - Covenant says to Linden:

You could stay here....The lore of the old Lords is still here. Most of it, anyway. Maybe the Giants could translate it for you. You might find a way out of this mess for yourself.

This does not in and of itself prove that the Giants had their own written language, but they definitely could read other languages (even languages which are extinct.)

Posted: **Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:09 am**

That's interesting. Does that mean the lore of the Lords was recorded in Giant language? Does it mean the humans of the Land had no written language until the Unhomed brought it with them?

Kevin's Watch

Giant writings

Giant writings