Kevin's Watch

Why it is that if the venom + the Ring =

Spoiler

potential destruction of the Arch of Time

, why Covenant didnt just take the Ring off? I presume he couldnt make use of it if he wasnt wearing it, correct? Otherwise handing it someone else (such as Linden) would not have been very useful, and Findail suggests that would solve the problem. Why didnt he just take it off and stick it in his pocket or on a chain around his neck ala Frodo in LOTR? As far as I recall he wears the Ring on his finger throughout the entire series... up until most of us know when.

If you consider what Mhoram told Covenant in TPTP:

Spoiler

You are the white gold

then you realize that what you are asking might not have made much difference. It's not so much that venom + ring is the problem - it's venom + wild magic (the articulate expression of Covenant's passion) that poses the risk to the AoT.

Yes, but the Ring is a necessary conduit for that Wild Magic isnt it? Otherwise, why would the Elohim insist he give the Ring to them, or to Linden? Findail said the intent of that suggestion was to foil Fouls plot - which wouldnt work if Covenant could continue to channel Wild Magic, Ring or not.

Here's my thoughts:

1. Stuff can fall out of jeans pockets very easily, especially something like the ring. I don't think he'd want to take the chance of losing it.

2. If he were to wear it on a chain (or anything else, really) around his neck, I wouldn't doubt Covenant's ability to use the wild magic even then. Something tells me that something as powerful as the wild magic isn't going to be hindered by a thin layer of cloth between Covenant's skin and the ring. Besides, it never says that the ring has to physically touch him, it could be that the ring just needs to be close to his body. Think of it this way, Gravelingases can get Graveling to work without touching each individual piece of Graveling, right?

King Elessar 8 wrote:Yes, but the Ring is a necessary conduit for that Wild Magic isnt it? Otherwise, why would the Elohim insist he give the Ring to them, or to Linden? Findail said the intent of that suggestion was to foil Fouls plot - which wouldnt work if Covenant could continue to channel Wild Magic, Ring or not.

Perhaps the exchange is symbolic - his giving her the ring would signify his passing of control of the Wild Magic willingly to her. That would explain why they only ever asked him to give her it, and when he wouldn't made him incapable of using the magic rather than taking the ring by force - it must be a willing transfer of control on his part.
It makes sense when you consider how Donaldson thinks of fantasy - where the world, situations, and characters are an externalisation of parts of the PoV character. TC originally could not allow himself to have any power, so he needed something for the power to come from, something with meaning for him - the ring became necessary for him psychologically. It follows that it is also necessary, psychologically, for him to give her the ring willingly, if he is ever to truly relinquish control of the Wild Magic.

I like that answer, Murrin. It makes sense to me.

I think it had to do more with his stubbernes, his refusal to let go of Joan. This is just another example of his defiance of the world, andto Foul that he would not give in and quit.

Just my :2c
I always felt that the ring was the conduit until Covenant discovered that what Mhorman told him was absolutely true, and he finally embraced and accepted it. Mhorman had said, "You are the white gold...."
so perhaps the ring was symbolic of the power "within" and Covenant finally knew and "believed" only at the end of WGW.
I wonder if this becomes clear in the Third Chrons.

Linden magicly had Covenants ring in the real world at the end of the second chrons... I wonder if there'll be an explination of that...

Ok. here I go reading between the lines and "deep-thinking" it again.....
Linden perceived the ring as "her wedding ring" as she came back into her physical world. A wedding ring, implies marriage, which we know didn't "actually" take place, yet a marriage of their souls did. (I see a much deeper meaning here, which I won't go into)
The law in our world, says that a marriage union makes ONE of two. They become two parts of a whole, a living law unto itself, a picture or symbol of the greater Law which governs the universe( see Einstein's theory of relativity).
Covenant told Linden he would always be with her.
She could see he was physically dead and yet still there, still speaking to her. He was IN her heart and soul. She had power to transcend the physical properties of Mt Thunder after she picked up the ring. She healed The First and Pitchwife and spoke victory into their hearts and minds. These are things Covenant never even tried to do. The power of their spirit and souls united and sealed by the White Gold was magnificent.
Linden obviously knew or believed that it would carry over into her physical world, since she herself was internally healed and notice her words about "hurts to be healed" in this world.....

Hierachy wrote:Linden magicly had Covenants ring in the real world at the end of the second chrons... I wonder if there'll be an explination of that...

Yes, I think there will be....to me it's one of the loosest ends left open by SRD.

And, nice post, Cate.

Thanks, D. And in my other post about the staff, I
didn't mean to outright contradict you, I think I dig too deeply maybe, and take it all too personally, going off on my own quest, so pardon my words if they seem too "out there".....

V good post, Cate - and it fits with another thing in the Second Chrons. When the Elohim met Covenant and Linden, they said that the ring-wielder and the Sun-sage should be one person, and their explanation for why this was not true was that either Covenant will die or the two will somehow merge - and if you follow from your interpretation of what happened in the end, we could say that both of these things happened - as befits the paradox of the White Gold. I do think there'll be more on this in the Last Chrons.

Interesting ideas. I'm pretty sure SRD said in the GI that it will be explained.

Cate wrote:Thanks, D. And in my other post about the staff, I
didn't mean to outright contradict you, I think I dig too deeply maybe, and take it all too personally, going off on my own quest, so pardon my words if they seem too "out there".....

No, you were right in pointing out to me that my post as written was in error. No offense taken.

From the Gradual Interview:

Alis Mirak: Are you going to explain how Linden got Covenant's ring? I never quite caught how she ended up with it.
-Alis

Alas, I can only tell you: wait and see.

(03/25/2004)

Murrin wrote:Perhaps the exchange is symbolic - his giving her the ring would signify his passing of control of the Wild Magic willingly to her. That would explain why they only ever asked him to give her it, and when he wouldn't made him incapable of using the magic rather than taking the ring by force - it must be a willing transfer of control on his part.
It makes sense when you consider how Donaldson thinks of fantasy - where the world, situations, and characters are an externalisation of parts of the PoV character. TC originally could not allow himself to have any power, so he needed something for the power to come from, something with meaning for him - the ring became necessary for him psychologically. It follows that it is also necessary, psychologically, for him to give her the ring willingly, if he is ever to truly relinquish control of the Wild Magic.

But if this theory is true, then Findail either was working under a great misconception, or he was far too sure of his own powers and knowledge... if you recall, when he finally explained the whole reason for the silencing of Covenant, he also explained that one of the reasons was that the Elohim hoped Linden would take the ring from Covenant and use it herself. Therefore, either Findail didn't realize the link between Covenant and wild magic, and the true significance of the ring, or he was sure that the silencing would allow the ring - and wild magic - to be taken away from Covenant without him renouncing them. Yet we are confronted by a contradiction: Findail claims that the Elohim hoped Linden would claim the ring while Covenant was silenced, while Kasreyn of the Gyre wanted Covenant to give him the ring willingly - even though he obviously had no reason not to hurt Covenant, and he had time to spend alone with a silenced Covenant.

So I would suggest a variant of your hypothesis, which also doesn't contradict your earlier considerations: that is, the unwritten "law" which states that the ring must be given willingly could probably apply to the inhabitants of the world where the Land is, and not to people from Covenant's world - thus, Kasreyn needed Covenant to give the ring to him willingly, and Findail too, but Linden could, if she had wanted, take the ring from Covenant without trouble. Considering your point regarding SRD's view of fantasy as an externalization of the characters' inner struggle, it makes sense that Linden, not an integral part of the Land and its world, and instead belonging to Covenant's same "level of reality", could be exempt from rules which were true for everyone else in that world.

Incidentally, the same reason might explain, to a lesser degree, why Linden could possess Covenant and wield wild magic with impunity, while Foul's minions, the Ravers, never attempted it: perhaps the fact that actively coercing Covenant against his will would make him a useless tool didn't apply to Linden, since she was not an integral part of that world.

I believe its a little of everyones ideas here. Think about it, Mhoram was on the right track when he told TC "you are the White Gold". And at the end of the 2nd Chrons. he accepts his role and what must happen to defeat foul. It wasnt the WG as much as TC himself and the "cross he had to bear" Kinda had some Christian undertones to it I feel

My Understanding is that an essential part of Foul's plan in the II Chrons was to get his venom inside covenant. The venom is the touch of the despiser inside of Covenant which causes his power to grow out of control and eventually be corrupted directly by Foul and/or Gibbon-Raver. (hence the change from argent to pitch as midnight.)

Covenant's sleepover in Banefire fused the wild magic to his essential... spirit... self... thing, along with the venom, creating what he called an imperfect alloy, much in the way white gold itself is an imperfect alloy. The reason the venom + white gold =

Spoiler

the breaking of the arch of time? Covenant states that wild magic is the Keystone of the arch of time. Every time he uses the wild magic with the venom's corruption, he is placing the ill of the despiser/sunbane onto the keystone of the arch of time. Perhaps this is what Donaldson meant when he said III Chrons was based around a corruption of time. (Don't worry, that is absolute speculation, I haven’t read ROE)

As to why covenant didn’t just give up the ring? One of the major themes of II chrons is why he can't to this. After all the sacrifices he has made and have been made in his name, Covenant CAN'T give up saving the land into someone else's (admittedly capable) hands. His struggle with ineffectuality is a theme of BOTH chrons. In I Chrons, it was the ineffectuality of no power. Kind of a no Brainer, but II Chrons is about the ineffectuality of too much power. Just look at the Elohim. They have so much damn power, they are doomed to (near) complete inaction!

Anyway, at least 3 or 4 times in the books, Covenant thinks about giving the ring to Lindon, but he can't do it. He cant go back to being unable to save the land. For good or for ill, he feels it is his responsibility and his alone to save the land, for both selfish and unselfish reasons.

*whew*

Edit: Man, I'm a newbie. I had that spoiler thing at the botterm of my post again.