Kevin's Watch

Perhaps a silly question, but...

What do imagine a Raver would do with the Ring, if he came into possession of it? We know (in outline) what Foul would do - destroy the Arch of Time and attack the Creator (could Foul really destroy God?). There are several moments when various Ravers express the desire to have the Ring for themselves, such as when

Spoiler

Gibbon-Raver tries to coerce Covenant to give it to him at the soothtell.

Are the interests of the Ravers the same as Foul? Would they also bring down the Arch of Time, or would they simply make themselves (shudder) the ruler(s) of the Earth? If the later, I suppose it would be better in that case for Foul to have the Ring - better there be no Earth at all than one run by a Raver.

King Elessar 8 wrote:could Foul really destroy God

No.
A creation is never stronger than its creator.
White Gold is rare in "the land". I don't understand how that makes it powerful. But okay, so there's this ring and it's powerful. Okay. So if Foul breaks the Arch of Time, then there is no time anymore. This also, by the way, affects earth.

I don't know about other people, but I'm pretty sure I'd go insane immediately due to the fact that I'm living, dead, 21, 43, 11, a baby, an old man, and every moment of my life all at the same untime.

But God created time, so he's already outside of it. Could Satan destroy God? No. But he could destroy the universe and everything that God created. That's pretty much what he wants anyway, to grieve God.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Foul can't be stronger than the creator, and certainly since wild magic was simply something created by the creator it couldn't be used against him. Foul just wants two things.

1. To destroy his prison.
2. To spite the creator by ruining his creation.

If Foul was ever stronger than the Creator, would the Creator have succeeded in making the Land anyway? His spite was limited to ruining very small parts of the creation.

As far as the Ravers go...I pretty much agree that they'd be more interested in ruling the world than destroying it. Foul is, though, smarter than them. Foul could, over time, screw with the Ravers enough to make them give him the ring, at which point he'd just go ahead with his plan to break the Arch.

ZefaLefeLaH wrote:

King Elessar 8 wrote:could Foul really destroy God

No.
A creation is never stronger than its creator.

The Creator didn't create Foul. They both existed together, possibly as seperate entities, possibly as facets of the same entity. I see no reason why Foul couldn't be as powerful as the creator. As for the Ravers, since they were created as part of the earth (intentionally or otherwise) presumably if the Arch broke, they would be destroyed with everything else.

man, its times like this that i really wish i had my copies down here

It's not clear whether Foul was created or another part of the Creator. In the legend of creation the book (Wounded Land) actually says "son or brother" when referring to Foul.

The white magic itself is the power of the Creator, as it is beyond all Law and Time. With that power added to his own, it's possible that Foul (given he is the yang of the Creator's yin) could subdue his other half and become supreme ruler of the cosmos.

A Raver on the other hand, even with white magic, could not ultimately over-throw the Creator nor the Despiser. While Foul is vunerable to white magic under the Arch, once released he and the Creator hold the upper-hand.

Yet, either way... the Earth is screwed. ^_^

Urlord wrote:wild magic was simply something created by the creator

...are you sure?

This has become a truly intriguing conversation!

SRD makes it clear that the Creator formed wild magic as the Keystone of the AoT. As UrLord said above, Foul wants out of the place where he is imprisoned, but he also wants something more. I quote WGW Chapter 19, shortly after Covenant gives Foul the ring:

"Here at last I hold possession of all life and Time forever! Let my Enemy look to his survival and be daunted! Freed of my gaol and torment, I will rule the cosmos!"

So whatever Foul's abilities, clearly he expected possession of the wild magic to give him the upper hand against the Creator.

But the answer to the question of what a Raver would do with the wild magic remains uncertain. If a Raver used the wild magic to destroy the AoT, then certainly Foul would be destroyed. I use for the foundation of this belief the following quote from chapter 2, WGW, where Findail says:

"This Despiser is not mad. Should he rouse the Worm himself, without the wild magic in his hand, would he not also be consumed in the destruction of the world?"

So to me, this raises a problem in my understanding of the nature of Foul's imprisonment in the AoT. For all intents and purposes, is the Worm's awakening and the destruction of the AoT one and the same? If so, Foul could have never wanted Covenant to seriously endanger the AoT at all, neither at the Isle of the One Tree nor during his battle with Gibbon-Raver in Revelstone. Had Covenant destroyed the Arch, then Foul would have perished as well. Or, does awakening of the Worm only mean the end of the Land's Earth, but Time goes on?

The Creator can't go into the AoT; he would destroy it simply by doing so. His very presence is apparently too potent for such a structure. Despite, otoh, was thrown into it, and can't break it with only his own power. In this way, at least, the Creator is more powerful than Foul.

danlo wrote:

Urlord wrote:wild magic was simply something created by the creator

...are you sure?

It is as dlb says. At least according to Tamarantha:

"First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be - and for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure."

Unfortunately, I can't make sense of all the stuff dlb brings up. There do seem to be contradictions. However, I'll offer this response:

dlbpharmd wrote:For all intents and purposes, is the Worm's awakening and the destruction of the AoT one and the same?

I think not.

"Are you blind at last?" His voice rang like a carillon in agony. "Employ your sight! You must see! For this has the Despiser wrought his ill against you! For this! The Worm defends the One Tree! Have you learned nothing? Here the Despiser cannot fail! If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos. And if the ring-wielder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time. It cannot contain such a battle! It is founded upon white gold, and white gold will rive it to rubble!"

I only question this because the actual physical ring and Covenant himself may have been created by a completely seperate God/Creator...that's all (Just throwing some gas on the fire...)

Also to consider is that while the ring originally was a talisman, Covenant himself was the White Gold.

Sorry, Fist - guess this is not the first time that I have not made any sense.

There is contradiction in Findail's separate statements. According to him, if Covenant awakens the Wom directly, then Despite is freed. But if Foul attempts to awaken the Worm without wild magic in hand, then Foul is destroyed. I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Yes, I see the confusion there. One for the Gradual Interview, perhaps?

dlbpharmd wrote:Sorry, Fist - guess this is not the first time that I have not made any sense.

No! It wasn't you, it was the contradictions you pointed out.

dlbpharmd wrote:There is contradiction in Findail's separate statements.

It certainly seems so! But remember back in The Nicor of the Deep, when Pitchwife began the tale of the Worm, he said:

"It is said among the Eohim, whose knowledge is wonderous, and difficult of contradiction..."

As is SRD in general, eh? Maybe we'll just have to accept this one, too. *sigh*

But still, let's see...

dlbpharmd wrote:According to him, if Covenant awakens the Wom directly, then Despite is freed. But if Foul attempts to awaken the Worm without wild magic in hand, then Foul is destroyed. I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Can it possibly be that it is the Worm itself that could destroy Foul?? Maybe he can survive the Earth's destruction with no problem, but not a personal attack by the Worm. Amok said:

"The first of these hazards - first, but perhaps not foremost - is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged - the Power cannot compel him."

And I'd say that nothing made within the AoT can destroy Foul. Well, according to Pitchwife's story, the Worm didn't originate within the Earth - it actually made the Earth. (And, as an aside, would also be immune to the Power of Command.) Does this mean the Worm is also from outside the AoT? Hard for us to know. But if so, the question is: Is it possible that this one thing from outside of the Arch - the Worm - has the power to destroy this other thing from outside the Arch - Foul? Would that explain Findail's seemingly contradictory statements?


And another confusing point to me is this: If wild magic is the keystone to the AoT, and the AoT is destroyed, how can Foul think he would still have any power over Time? IOW, what good is wild magic without Time? Should the Creator be worried if Foul holds the keystone to something that no longer exists?

And would the Creator have forged something in the first place that was capable of destroying even himself?

JD wrote:Also to consider is that while the ring originally was a talisman, Covenant himself was the White Gold.

Thanks JD that's exactly the response I was trying to evoke!

It's said that the Worm is infact the Earth itself (hence the reason why there is Earth blood and such). Thus the Worm/Earth slumbers within the encompassing AoT.

With that in mind, Foul knows that if he simply shocks the Worm into awakening, it will stir and attempt to break free of the Arch. Now imagine a beast crammed into a gigantic snow-globe... if it wakes up and tries to get free all the little people living on it are going to get ****ed up somethin' serious.

However, Foul with white magic will be able to break open the Arch and escape without harm. Likewise he will find the same escape if he could have Covenant bring down the Arch while battling the Worm.

What I find curious is that white gold seems to be completely absent from the Land altogether. What meaning can be found in the fact that the trigger to releasing ultimate magic in one world can only be found in another? How do the Creator and the Despiser fit into Covenant's world?

When I think about something like that, I tend to believe the Land is a subconscious place of the mind.

Yes, Krilly is quite correct, and here's a quote from Covenant in WGW, Chapter 11:

Keystone. The Arch of Time is held together at the apex by wild magic. And the Arch is what gives the Earth a place in which to exist. It's what imprisons Foul. That's why he wants my ring. To break Time so he can escape.

*bump* for Isildurs Bane