Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:41 pm**

Whether people believe or disbelieve is besides the point... but say that there is a God... are we worthy of him/her/it? I mean this God is so pure, loving, great; if he did indeed create us, why would he continue to love us? I mean look at the way the human race as a whole has developed... Rapists, Killers, Greed, more selfishness than I can account for, how then, can God remain proud of his creation?

Now I'm not saying that there are not some great people out there... but I speak for the majority of the human race... we're impelled by greed in most of our actions...

Are we truly worthy of any God... How can such a God be proud of what he has made?

These questions, I leave to you.

Posted: **Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:35 pm**

There are a couple of things I could say to this.

The first thing is that if you accept the God you've described above, then you have to accept that he gave us our freedom of choice. He could have made us to be unquestioningly "good", but instead we have the capacity to choose, whether to do right or wrong. To me that says that our free choice must be important.
So, I'm sure that God is saddened when we do wrong, but conversely he should also be pleased by people doing the right thing, even in small ways...and people do, an awful lot.

The other thing is that to God, we are his children, growing up. We're going to stumble, we're going to make mistakes, some of them terrible. But that doesn't mean that he's going to stop loving us, any more than I would stop loving my (hypothetical) kids.

Posted: **Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:59 pm**

Is God worthy of us?

Seems like we do all the work and he/she gets all the credit.

I'm defensive about posting here after Darth went out of his way to negate altruism...(which has more to do with overall life exprience than a teenager could ever understand)

Posted: **Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:27 pm**

You wot?

God doesn't exist you fools!!!

Posted: **Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:44 pm**

Is God worthy of us? Is he cool enough to hang out with me, listen to my music, and play me in multi-player Halo? That is the conundrum.

Posted: **Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:59 pm**

God would totally own you at Halo.

Posted: **Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:56 pm**

Dude. I beat Halo on Legendary. Then again, God made the people who made Halo.

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:16 am**

Are we worthy of God? If she's is immortal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and transcendant, then no, of course not.

On the other hand, if she wants to have something to do with humanity regardless, then who am I to argue?

Btw Dr Evil, as Darth said, this is a hypothetical discussion. I know that he certainly doesn't believe in a god or supreme being, so you need not worry.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:43 am**

danlo wrote:Is God worthy of us? Seems like we do all the work and he/she gets all the credit.

Well said. This is pretty much the way I feel about it.

RE: your comment on the altruism thread; don't let it put you off, I'm sure we all have gone through stages like that, I know I did. Putting these things out for question is how we gain other perspectives, which, as I often say, is the most important thing. Darths comments and stance are based on his own experience up 'til now. The fact that they will likely change as the years pass is neither here nor there.

If we postulate the existence of a supreme being who created us, then we must accept that we were created to be the way that we are. In this hypothesis, the concept is not that humanity as a whole be worthy of god, but that individuals are.

The murderers and rapists are not making us unworthy, only themselves. The point is not how we could live, but how we do live.

For me, of course, its a moot point, but if we accept it, then the whole setup seems inherently unfair. You've got free will, but if you actually use it in ways other than the approved, you're going to suffer for all eternity.

Do what you want, and suffer, or do what you're told and be "rewarded". Hell of a choice if you ask me. Of course, it's still a choice, and I've made mine, but some may see it otherwise. It's the equivalent of having a loaded gun to your head and being told you can remain silent, or die. Hobsons choice, I think they call it. It's choice, but do you really want to excercise it?

--Avatar

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:03 am**

Lord Foul wrote:Is God worthy of us? Is he cool enough to hang out with me, listen to my music, and play me in multi-player Halo? That is the conundrum.

The Leper Fairy wrote:God would totally own you at Halo.

Lord Foul wrote:Dude. I beat Halo on Legendary. Then again, God made the people who made Halo.

keep it in another forum.

danlo wrote:Is God worthy of us? Seems like we do all the work and he/she gets all the credit. I'm defensive about posting here after Darth went out of his way to negate altruism...(which has more to do with overall life exprience than a teenager could ever understand)

erm... excuse me danlo, I can have my own point of view if I want to... If my point of view offends you, I apologise. But, my point of view isn't wrong, nor is it right... it's a point of view; everyone can have one.

Anyways... as Variol Son said; yes, I am talking purely hypothetically. I think Avatar is completely right (Again

! )

The concept is not that humanity as a whole be worthy of god, but that individuals are.

Yes, the human race as a whole isn't worthy at all in my opinion. But there are individuals... naming one off hand, Mother Terisa (Sp?) who are worthy... or Furls' brother. (hope you don't mind the mention Furls, but your brother sounds like a great person)

But Gart... you mention he could still love his children... if you had a child that was impelled by greed, was a murderer and a rapist... could you still love it?

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:22 am**

I think that the closest we can ever come to understanding unconditional love is when we consider the love that a parent has for a child. It doesn't necessarily rest on approval, it is a love that is present in spite of all that is done.

Partly perhaps because parents struggle to believe that their children are actually guilty of such things. Even when they know it to be true, the mind rebels from applying it to the reasons for their love.

It's easy to espouse the so-called "Tuff Love", but when it gets right down to it, it's hell of a hard to do it. I have personal experience of this, as I mentioned elsewhere, my brother is a recovering Heroin addict. In the end, it was the fact that my family refused to give up on him, despite the lying, cheating, stealing and scheming that eventually contributed to his getting clean. No matter how often we swore that he could go off and die for all we cared, it was never true.

Maybe god (positing his existence) feels the same way? If so, perhaps we should feel sorry for him.

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:33 pm**

Avatar wrote:I think that the closest we can ever come to understanding unconditional love is when we consider the love that a parent has for a child. It doesn't necessarily rest on approval, it is a love that is present in spite of all that is done.

Partly perhaps because parents struggle to believe that their children are actually guilty of such things. Even when they know it to be true, the mind rebels from applying it to the reasons for their love.

It's easy to espouse the so-called "Tuff Love", but when it gets right down to it, it's hell of a hard to do it. I have personal experience of this, as I mentioned elsewhere, my brother is a recovering Heroin addict. In the end, it was the fact that my family refused to give up on him, despite the lying, cheating, stealing and scheming that eventually contributed to his getting clean. No matter how often we swore that he could go off and die for all we cared, it was never true.

Maybe god (positing his existence) feels the same way? If so, perhaps we should feel sorry for him.

If we should feel sorry for him, we should do something about it... honestly. let's say there is a God.. I honestly don't think that the human race as a whole are worthy of him... perhaps certain people... but those are few and far between.

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:40 pm**

What should we do? Stop being human in order to give him a break? Or just kill everybody that doesn't act the way that they should if they believe in god? Oh yes, and all those who don't believe in him regardless of the way that they act.

That should help a bit, not to mention reducing the population to more manageable proportions. It might be a bit boring afterwards though

--Avatar

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:41 pm**

Avatar wrote:What should we do? Stop being human in order to give him a break? Or just kill everybody that doesn't act the way that they should if they believe in god? Oh yes, and all those who don't believe in him regardless of the way that they act.

That should help a bit, not to mention reducing the population to more manageable proportions. It might be a bit boring afterwards though

--Avatar

be less self serving? be less selfish? I don't know the solutions; I just know the problems. I don't think I'm wise enough to guide humanity on how to improve itself.

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:50 pm**

All we need is for each and every individual in the world to concentrate on improving themselves, and not to worry about improving everybody else. Eventually, the cumulative effect would be enormous.

As it is though, far too many people seem intent on improving everybody else, possibly in the assumption that they themselves are just fine.

This is a concept that annoys me beyond almost all others: "...for your own good".

--Avatar

Posted: **Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:10 pm**

Avatar wrote:All we need is for each and every individual in the world to concentrate on improving themselves, and not to worry about improving everybody else. Eventually, the cumulative effect would be enormous.

As it is though, far too many people seem intent on improving everybody else, possibly in the assumption that they themselves are just fine.

This is a concept that annoys me beyond almost all others: "...for your own good".

--Avatar

Perhaps... perhaps I should improve myself before critising the world's woes... But it is sad... that humans are the way they are.

Posted: **Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:13 am**

The Bible states that we are the way we are because of the Devil's Temptations. However, should we truly follow the example of Christ, we could be worthy of God......

Posted: **Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:39 am**

Christianity needs the devil. Theres no point in having a party (as in political) without some form of opposition.

It was only fairly late in the progression of christianity that the devil, or Lucifer, became the "Adversary". Even in the book of Job, Satan is referred to as a son of god. Only in the NT does he become the evil source of all mankinds woes.

That said, I don't intend to imply that there is anything wrong in the example of christ. He offers morally sound teachings, which we would all do well to emulate. But not because the alternative is an eternity of suffering.

--Avatar

Posted: **Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:27 am**

Now I'm not saying that there are not some great people out there... but I speak for the majority of the human race... we're impelled by greed in most of our actions...

Most of our actions? Name one action for which the motives are not self-serving/self gratifying. I think it is safe to say that every action anyone makes is aimed to provide maximum comfort to the actor.

As Avatar said, we have choices, but only one choice is the one we will make because it's the route of least discomfort.

Posted: **Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:42 am**

Nathan wrote: Most of our actions? Name one action for which the motives are not self-serving/self gratifying. I think it is safe to say that every action anyone makes is aimed to provide maximum comfort to the actor.

Check out the "Altruism--A Lie" thread for peoples ideas on this one. It's obviously a contentious issue, and there you'll find arguments both for and against your statement.

--A

Kevin's Watch

Are We Worthy Of God?

Are We Worthy Of God?