Kevin's Watch

don't really believe in hell... But I just thought I'd bring this idea up anyways...

Yet another attack on humanity...

I might have talked about this before... I can't remember.

But I'd just thought I'd say... if you've read the bible... and the ten commandments... you'll know you can burn in hell for a hell of a lot of things (Pun unintended. )

This is my point:

I really don't think that there is one human on the Watch... and very few humans altogether... because none of us have obeyed the 10 commandments at all as we can... I'm willing to bet that every one of us has broken one or two down the line (Hopefully not the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" one! !) But... seriosuly, can anyone here tell me (Excpet for Furls ) that they have not broken at least one rule that you would get sent t hell for?

I don't think I've done anything to get sent to hell for. (Positing it's existence at all.)

This is not to say that there aren't rules which I've broken that the bible wouldn't consider "hell-worthy", but I certainly don't believe that a just god would condemn me for those transgressions, such as they are.

Also, I've tried to live my life since in ways which, to my mind at least, redress the balance.

To quote the Principia Discordia:

...the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them that believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't.--Honest Book of Truth; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1

--Avatar

I'm not saying we're all bad people, in fact, what I'm trying to say is the bible is wrong... and God is wrong, on some points... I mean according to the bible, being gay is a sin... I know a couple of gays... and they're very decent people... but according to the bible, they're going to hell.

Hahaha... I think Nietzsche would have gotten a kick out of the Principia.
I never believed in hell, I think it was my first reason to begin to doubt the accuracy of the church.
I had two givens. (1) that God is infinately powerful. (2) that God was infinately loving.
Then I was given (3) There is a place of ETERNAL TORMENT created by God for people that choose against god to dwell in, after death.

Obviously I had some problems here. I asked why he would do this, and I was told that he gave us free will (heh, we know how I feel about free will) and that we had to choose hell, and he could not stop us if we did.
Of course, I throw out anything that begins with 'God could not' because it disagrees with a previous premise. I heard analogies about fatherly love, but this Hell place was supposed to be eternal.
And it's true, the lowest rung of hell thing, that has a lot of merit. The bit about how we might as well be faithful, because it helps society and doesn't cost us anything, and might send us to heaven as opposed to hell, is so opposite to faith that it's kind of revolting.

Either way, I'm going to hell. If a God exists, I'm screwed for not believing in him. If God doesn't exist, I'm screwed because there's no afterlife. Maybe there is a Godless afterlife, and maybe God doesn't care if I don't believe. Knowing my luck, I somehow doubt both.

I don't believe in hell either-so, sorry, can't help you...

On the use of the Bible for this topic...Careful about that, Darth...If you read the New Testament, you find that it's not exactly as you describe. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again:
Salvation, according to Biblical teachings, comes from accepting Christ as Savior. Works come from salvation; salvation does not come from works.

Actually Iryssa, that's one of the reasons I ended up leaving the faith. I realized the inconsistency of the Catholics, claiming that good works COULD result in salvation, despite what the bible said, and so I couldn't be a Catholic anymore. And I couldn't be a christian, because I vehemently disagreed with the idea that if there was salvation, all the good that could be done, every act of self sacrifice and charity and kindness, wouldn't amount to one whit in the eyes of the christian god if Jesus was not accepted as a savior.
That simply isn't my go(o)d, the god of infinate love and power. I cannot believe in a god that I disagree with so completely. If I continued to do so, I would hate myself for it, and then why would I believe in it? To protect myself from hell. The weakest reason for belief.
In order to be a complete, self loving person, I had to leave christianity behind.

I believe in hell and I suspect that that loathsome place will have a different meaning for each person as their souls arrive.
My hell will be to spend the rest of eternity in a place populated by people standing around discussing whether hell actually exists or not.

Hehehehe... hell is other people

For me personally, the film What Dreams May Come provides an interesting view of what heaven and hell may be like. Not that I agree with everything the movie says, but it offers some interesting perspectives.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Romans 3:12b - There is none who does good, no, not one.

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:8-14 - 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Some good posts there JemCheeta, I especially liked that "in order to be a complete, self-loving person..."

Tom-- I once read a little joke/allegory, where in a dream, a man is offered the chance to see both heaven and hell:

The door to hell opens, and it's a huge banquet hall, filled with people, sitting at tables stacked high with delicacies. However, the people were all moaning and wailing in hunger, because the utensils were all several feet long, and there was no way that they could get the food to their mouths.

Next, the door to heaven opened, upon almost exactly the same scene, the tables of good food, the huge utensils, but the people here were laughing and smiling. They were using the long spoons to feed each other.

Foul-- As I've said before, if there is only oblivion, we'll never know. So don't let it get to you

Iryssa-- Does lack of salvation negate good works though? And does salvation negate lack of good works?

Zeph-- As I've mentioned before, I just can't accept that the only way something can be "good" is if it is done by someone who believes in god, or has accepted Jesus as a saviour.

Nothing about me is dependant on whether or not the "glory of god" is present in my life. Yes, we will all fade, but we make ourselves "unclean" through our actions. It is not automatic.

--Avatar

Avatar wrote:Foul-- As I've said before, if there is only oblivion, we'll never know. So don't let it get to you

You're right. If there really is oblivion, it won't get to me. But from where I'm looking now, oblivion is a hell, compared to the sweet taste of this life.

Be sure to make the most of it then. Death is only an insult because it rubs our faces in the fact that, on a universal timescale, the span of our existence is less than the blink of an eye, yet we feel immortal.

Live forever...or die trying.

--A

Preaching to the choir now!

Avatar wrote:
Zeph-- As I've mentioned before, I just can't accept that the only way something can be "good" is if it is done by someone who believes in god, or has accepted Jesus as a saviour.

Nothing about me is dependant on whether or not the "glory of god" is present in my life. Yes, we will all fade, but we make ourselves "unclean" through our actions. It is not automatic.

--Avatar

Well...

I look at it like this. Adam & Eve were perfect. When they fell from perfection, they're imperfection was passed down through the seed of man. That is why the virgin birth is so important.

Anyway, it is my hope that you'll reconsider so that we can travel the universe together in our spare time of eternity, inotherwords, for billions of years if we wanted to. We could all spend hundreds of billions of years showing each other things. But since there won't be time. I guess we can spend a bit of untime together.

Avatar wrote: Does lack of salvation negate good works though? And does salvation negate lack of good works?

It doesn't make you less of a good person if you don't know Christ, if that's what you mean. People will still like you, which will probably make your life on earth happier and easier...but whether it matters on an eternal scale...*sigh* to answer this we'll have to go into two beliefs about heaven and hell.
First one is this: that there is nothing "in the middle"...no purgatory or limbo or anything...in this case, if you don't know Christ, you're not going to heaven, you're going to hell. Why? Well, automatically you're breaking the first commandment, which is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind"
Second belief is that there is a limbo, where "unbaptized children and adults who die without committing grievous actual sin, enjoy perfect natural happiness."
There's also the Catholic belief in purgatory...I've never really studied this (maybe Jem could help with this?), so I won't even try to explain it, since I'll probably botch the whole thing *grin*

No, salvation does not negate lack of good works. I think this passage explains it best:

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." - James 2:14-18

Just found another passage that illustrates this further:

If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. -- 1 John 1:6&7

ZefaLefeLaH wrote:...I look at it like this. Adam & Eve were perfect. When they fell from perfection, they're imperfection was passed down through the seed of man. That is why the virgin birth is so important.

As I've said to Iryssa, that is sort of like having to go to jail because your father robbed a bank. I don't accept the doctrine of "Original Sin". I think we all start out perfect, and the factors created by our environments, our assumptions, and our own actions contribute to lessening that perfection, if we let them.

ZefaLefeLaH wrote:...Anyway, it is my hope that you'll reconsider so that we can travel the universe together in our spare time of eternity, inotherwords, for billions of years if we wanted to. We could all spend hundreds of billions of years showing each other things. But since there won't be time. I guess we can spend a bit of untime together.

Thanks for the invitation. Sounds like a great idea, especially if we can bring everybody else along. I can think of worse ways of spending eternity. Still, you never know...we might get the chance afterall...sometimes I hope that we'll all be surprised by what happens next.

Iryssa wrote:...First one is this: that there is nothing "in the middle"...no purgatory or limbo or anything...in this case, if you don't know Christ, you're not going to heaven, you're going to hell. Why? Well, automatically you're breaking the first commandment, which is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind"

This is the one I don't like.

Iryssa wrote:...Second belief is that there is a limbo, where "unbaptized children and adults who die without committing grievous actual sin, enjoy perfect natural happiness."

This one I could live with. But doesn't it all come down to who interprets the bible in what way? No way to tell, for us at least, which, if any, is right. I certainly don't see the point of sending people to hell solely for the "crime" of not accepting christ.

Iryssa wrote:...There's also the Catholic belief in purgatory...I've never really studied this (maybe Jem could help with this?), so I won't even try to explain it, since I'll probably botch the whole thing *grin*

If I recall, (and I may be wrong) Purgatory serves as the place where people who haven't committed "grievous actual sin" get to hang out until they've paid for the little sins they did commit. It's a place where one is seperated from the love of god, but only for a while. Eventually, you'll be let into heaven afterall.

Iryssa wrote:...No, salvation does not negate lack of good works.

Thanks, and well clarified by those particular verses, especially the first quote.

--Avatar