Kevin's Watch

Thomas Covenant? Who is it? What does he want? Is he back from the dead?

Darth Revan wrote:Thomas Covenant? Who is it? What does he want? Is he back from the dead?

No. Well, not yet anyway.

In another post I addressed the title of the second book, Fatal Revenant. Revenant means "One who returns from the dead; a ghost".

And as TC says, "Beware, I'm dead," or something along those lines.

Remember where both of these "strangers" are coming from: the Haruchai found them while scouting the Demondim, and the Demondim have lore that we have never seen before. Who knows what they're capable of? If not for the title of the second book, I would say that perhaps if Foul, Kastenessen, and the Demondim are working together, that they have somehow succeeded at resurrecting TC. But the title of the second book is immutable. He's dead, a ghost.

That doesn't mean, with all of the broken laws and the intercession of the Elohim, Foul, and the Demondim, that such a thing might not happen...we'll have to wait and see.

Of course, I desperately want TC back in the picture. As much as I love Linden, I *need* TC almost as much as she does. In a purely platonic fashion, of course.

Revenent... I assume it means he's back from the dead... it means one who has come back to life... supposedly from the dead. It's got to be Covenant at the end...

Also, he said "Remember I'm dead"

But he also said "Find me, I can't help you unless you find me."

Arn't we getting a little carried away? I'm all for that - I mean we have at least two years to speculate. So we are really at the infancy of something that gonna grow and grow over the coming months. Just to chuck a spanner in the works about the next book - who ever said that TC will be the eponymous Revenant? It could be Kevin, or Elena or a whole lot of other dead (Banner, Foamfollower) anymore guesses?

I'd love to think that it's really our Covenant, but he did say to Linden, "find me" rather than "meet you at Revelstone!"

He may not be an imposter, but I don't think he's going to be the Covenant we know and love, if you get what I'm saying...

Prince of Amber wrote:Arn't we getting a little carried away? I'm all for that - I mean we have at least two years to speculate. So we are really at the infancy of something that gonna grow and grow over the coming months. Just to chuck a spanner in the works about the next book - who ever said that TC will be the eponymous Revenant? It could be Kevin, or Elena or a whole lot of other dead (Banner, Foamfollower) anymore guesses?

It would be just like Donaldson to throw in a twist like that, but remember that he said (in the gradual interview) that Covenant still has something to learn, and that these are the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. He has to come back in some form.

UrLord wrote:I'd love to think that it's really our Covenant, but he did say to Linden, "find me" rather than "meet you at Revelstone!"

He may not be an imposter, but I don't think he's going to be the Covenant we know and love, if you get what I'm saying...

I agree. I did wonder about the lack of active finding. He may or may not be the Covenant, but either way I don't think he'll be the same.

But the title of the second book is immutable. He's dead, a ghost.

I think you may be overemphasizing the literal meaning of “revenant”. Yes, it means “ghost”, but by etymology it simply means “coming back, returning” (from French revenir). And some years back Donaldson, in an interview, mentioned that since the Law of Life is broken there’s no need for Covenant to stay dead. However, if the Demondim brought him back, then I’m betting he’s come back wrong somehow, and having Jeremiah with him (who we last knew was being tormented by Lord Foul) does not bode well either. Linden may being getting her own “Something broken” returned to her—two of them, in fact.

Aleksandr wrote:

But the title of the second book is immutable. He's dead, a ghost.

I think you may be overemphasizing the literal meaning of “revenant”. Yes, it means “ghost”, but by etymology it simply means “coming back, returning” (from French revenir). And some years back Donaldson, in an interview, mentioned that since the Law of Life is broken there’s no need for Covenant to stay dead. However, if the Demondim brought him back, then I’m betting he’s come back wrong somehow, and having Jeremiah with him (who we last knew was being tormented by Lord Foul) does not bode well either. Linden may being getting her own “Something broken” returned to her—two of them, in fact.

You're correct with regard to the etymology of the word, and as I've noted in other places (and as SRD has acknowledged in the gradual interview), he loves the OED, and therefore also probably enjoys using a word more along the lines of it's etymology than its eventual meaning and general usage (although who ever uses the word revenant?).

I completely agree with your interpretation - if the Demondim actually brought him back, and it isn't an imposter. SRD's given us some discussion fodder with this.

OK ...
Here's what I think: The theme of overlapping identities seems to be rampant. And the lines between Who is Who seems to be becoming blurrier and blurrier.

For instance: Covenant = Foul. Foul is his dark side. We have had this beaten into our heads for six books now. He is also externalized as a separate entity. BOTH explanations are true: the 'eye of the paradox'.

Now, we have Anele. He is sometimes Anele, sometimes Foul, sometimes Covenant. Then we have whatsisname (my brain is fried from staying up too late reading this past week ) who has to be both friend and foe at once -- he can't help you if he can't also stab you in the back, it's his 'nature'. He is divided into two entities within himself, each seeking balance.

So therefore: Covenant IS Covenant. And he's also NOT Covenant. The lines again are blurred. Identities are not constants, they overlap. The boundaries around EVERYTHING are becoming hazier -- witness the Falls. The boundaries between Internal and External realities -- The Land is a dream, the land is real. Both are true. The Falls are Joan's fractured mind, they are also manifested in the external physical Land.

So -- in what SENSE they overlap is still unclear, and Mr. D. is keeping guessing, but to me, its clear already that the 'players' in the Land are not completely seperate and distinct entities anymore, and cannot be regarded as It Is Covenant, It Is Not Covenant. The question has no meaning unless you affirm both polar opposites, and stand in the eye of the paradox.

Since the Demondim can use Caesures to access the Illearth Stone back in time, why couldn't they pull Covenant forward from one of his past journeys to the Land.

Then we'd have one live Covenant and the dead one to contend with!

But they surely couldn't just yank Covenant out of the past without obliterating the Arch? It would change so much history...

CovenantJr wrote:But they surely couldn't just yank Covenant out of the past without obliterating the Arch? It would change so much history...

Certainly weaken it ... and with the Caesures ... beware the halfhand ...

I agree with Covenant Jr. One of the stated fears of riding a caesure back in time was the danger it posed to the arch. They were also very carefuly not to change history, which is how the Demondim ended up in the "present", and their reason for that was again, the danger it posed to the arch.

Creator wrote:

CovenantJr wrote:But they surely couldn't just yank Covenant out of the past without obliterating the Arch? It would change so much history...

Certainly weaken it ... and with the Caesures ... beware the halfhand ...

If they pulled Covenant out of the Land's past, they would have to remove him from an occasion when he was doing something else - searching for the One Tree, shouting at Troy, questing for the Staff, reeling from the Ranyhyn, hunting for the Seventh Ward, calling Nom... Basically, they would have to whisk him away in the middle of doing something we've seen him doing, which would dramatically alter the course of the past. I think that would be enough to pop the Arch open.

Theoretically...

If caesures are essentially vehicles through time, then they might also be vehicles between time and space. In physics, the two are inextricably woven together.

I'm trying to imagine how it might be possible to grab TC through a caesure from the "real" world, but am failing miserably. I thought I had something worked out with him getting pulled out prior to the first chronicles, and his leprosy is actually a result of something that happens in the last chronicles in order to save The Land (for example, taking Kevin's Dirt inside of him), and he's placed back into his world after his mind is blanked.

But I think that's pretty lame, at least the way that I can see it in my tiny little brain.

Interesting notion, but the popping-him-back-with-no-memory bit is far too...cheap tv.

Agreed.

I went back and reread the ending and discovered something I had missed the first time since I was so astonished by Covenant’s presence.

Spoiler

Jeremiah is normal.Or at least he is reactive and no longer quasi-autistic. So Linden will be meeting her son with a functional mind for the first time.

All kinds of questions and issues looming on this one.

That wasn't lost on me - in fact, that shocked me more than Covenant's return. When it was announced that

Spoiler

two familiar people were approaching, or whatever

, I expected Covenant and Jeremiah. I did NOT expect Jeremiah to be active in any way. I expected him to remain semi-autistic, and for Linden to work on him with the Staff.