Existentialism Stinks

[The Dreaming]

Let me tell you, Reading T.S. Elliot affirms my faith like nothing else in the world. He shows me exactly what the alternative is to a world with a loving God and lemme tell you, it sucks. I really can't understand how anyone can believe that life is completely pointless without slitting their wrists.

It is in reading Elliot that I begin to question anyone who ascribes to those beliefs. I just have no idea how anyone lives and is just ok with a life completely lacking any purpose. It makes me think that these people just cannot understand everything a meaningless life implies.

It is like the difference between Atheism and Agnosticism. Atheists consciously believe in the "happy accident", which is just as impossible to prove as special creation. An Agnostic simply realizes that they know nothing and won't know anything until they meet their maker.

Just *who* prefers to live in a creator less universe? Why would anyone want to believe in a theory that is just as unlikely as the one they deny, but removes all meaning from life?

A simple logical phrase explains my point. "The Only way that I am screwed is if there is a God and I do not believe in him."

My theory as to the prevalence of existential thought? Religion is uncool. To me it seems a petty reason to deny the existence of God, but it is horrifyingly common. People think that they are so unique and Intellectual for being able to put themselves into an "ism" that they throw around at every opportunity.

I myself fear nothing more than oblivion. Give me eternal damnation, but for god's sake, don’t give me nothing.

[Avatar]

As I've pointed out elsewhere, oblivion is the one thing that we don't have to worry about. If that's all that there is, we'll never know.

It doesn't bother me at all that there may be no greater purpose to life. This is the "here and now", and it's always the "here and now".

I find it difficult to believe that there is a purpose. Why does there have to be one? As I've also mentioned somewhere, life does have a purpose. To Strive. All other purposes are ones we possibly imagine for our own comfort or peace of mind.

Does the fact that there is no purpose negate our lives in some way? Does it make us, or our actions, any less than they already are? Not for me. I'm well aware of the fact that it may all be for nothing. But from our present context, the context of the "here and now", it is not important.

Regardless of the purposefulness of life, we will live. We will act in ways which seem like good ideas to us, and some of us will try and improve the universe around them in whatever small way that they can.

We may be ghosts. What does it matter? What matters is that we are here. Now.

--Avatar

[Iryssa]

If we are here to strive, though, for what are we striving, and to what end? While it is good to focus on the moment at hand, it would be foolish not to look ahead, even into death...to not look ahead is like driving with your eyes closed: it would make you unable to see whether you're about to go off the road.

[The Dreaming]

Sorry there Avatar, looking back, that post is a lot more volatile than I meant it to be.

Anyway, this is something that I am convicted upon. I simply would not be able to live in a world described by Elliot and yourself. Hope gives my beliefs strength. Regardless of their validity, my belief in purpose seems to me to be infinitely more desirable than the alternative.

And I was serious about oblivion. I fear it more than I fear anything else. To me, there simply *must* be an undying part. My ego/self/Aiwa *must* be that undying part. I must have an objective existence beyond being a mass of neurons and neurotransmitters. Whether you call it a soul or consciousness or an electrical current, somewhere inside of me is *me*. And I desperately hope that death will not be the end of *me*

[Avatar]

No need to be sorry, I didn't think it was all that volatile (if at all). I hope you didn't find my reply to be so either, for it was certainly not intended to be.

Iryssa-- My road is always under me, no matter which way I turn.

I'm not saying that we don't strive for something, we strive for betterment, for improvement; of ourselves, of the world or the species, or whatever we choose.

Just that there does not necessarily have to be some greater purpose behind it i.e. heaven or whatever.

It is sufficient to me that we are here. We all do the best we can, with what we have, or have built.

We may well have an objective existence, in that we are more than the mere sum of our components, but that is not to say that that existence continues after the "death" of those components.

It would be nice if it did, (and I hope it does) but that doesn't automatically make it so. Would the knowledge that only oblivion awaited alter the way you deal with the world in any way? Do you give up your hopes because they may never be realised? Me neither.

--Avatar

[hamako]

Why does life have to have a purpose? It just is. That's it. Are we so arrogant as a species that we can't just accept that? I can understand the point of view that existentialism sucks, but doesn't belief in the fear of eternal damnation being the price of non belief/non adherence to the religious code suck more??

We have a compulsion to believe that we are quasi divine in that when this plane of life ends we translate to some other plane. Why should that be? We're just a few evolutionary steps further along than chimps & gorillas. What's the problem with that? We spend far too much time distinguishing ourselves from other animals on this planet in the fatuous hope that this will give us some justification as to why we are so intelligent and developed. So what. I wonder if dolphins do that. Maybe they are the true spiritual beings on this planet - I don't see them going round pillaging every natural resource available or inflicting hurt on each other.

I have real difficulty with the notion that we have souls etc. You can change your essential character, your core state, values, beliefs etc with pharmaceuticals, so that you are an entirely different person, sometimes irretrievably so. On a very simple level this indicates to me that there is no soul in a sense of it being non physical, divine etc.
So much time has been spent controlling man through the absolute strictures of religion - there is no greater threat than eternal damnation really is there? Isn't it about time that we faced up to what we are and rejoice in it? This life is wonderful, why not enjoy it for what it is rather than wrapping ourselves in a false security blanket, which to me is what all religion provides.

I listened to a non conformist priest recently on the subject of faith recently. I think he nailed it. He said that the nearer people get to death, the more faith they have - it's a comfort, in that they are hedging their bets. I believe it's a false comfort, I'm not judging that though, just that I believe it's pointless, much the same as putting your faith in a lottery win to ease you worry as you go around racking up the credit card bills.

So no, I don' think existentialism sucks ,I think it's fantastic. Savour your humanity and don' t dilute it.

Here endeth the lesson

[Worm of Despite]

Let me tell you, Reading T.S. Elliot affirms my faith like nothing else in the world. He shows me exactly what the alternative is to a world with a loving God and lemme tell you, it sucks. I really can't understand how anyone can believe that life is completely pointless without slitting their wrists.

I don't think there's a loving God or a God period, and that's my belief. Am I slitting my wrists over it right now? No, that's just a belief. To me, my belief is about important to me as my favorite football team (I hate football, by the way).

I don't think about the point to life. It doesn't matter to me if there is a point or there isn't. For some people, spiritual purpose is a big deal; for me it's not. If there is no point and we all just happened by accident, then fine; I'll enjoy this life as long as I can. The crime is not seeing a purposeless life; the crime is wasting life in despair.

I'm not a big fan of purpose, anyway. Purpose is kind of like prison, to me; it binds, sets rules, sets meaning. I feel the less purpose I have, the more freedom I have.

It's easy to feel indifferent to my beliefs. We're two completely different people with different perspectives. It's hard to be objective sometimes.

[Avatar]

...I'll enjoy this life as long as I can. The crime is not seeing a purposeless life; the crime is wasting life in despair...

...It's easy to feel indifferent to my beliefs.

I think Foul is right here. Just because there doesn't have to be a purpose is no reason to despair.

Now I do a lot of talking about what I believe, about what I have faith in, things like not harming others unnecessarily, about living "right". But perhaps a bit of clarification is in order.

My faith is probably quite different than what someone like Iryssa or Furls considers faith. My faith doesn't preclude the possibility of being wrong.

Perhaps hope is a better word. I hope that a lot of things are true. I hope that there is some purpose (not a "god" purpose, but some purpose.) I hope that it will all work out alright in the end.

But I know that it may not, that there may not be, and that those things may be false. (Wow, lots of italics)

That knowledge doesn't bother me though. I'll act the same way, feel the same way, and think the same way, even if it was definitively proved that I was wrong. Even if it turns out that it doesn't matter to the universe how you live your life, it will still matter to me. And afterall, I'm the one who counts.

If nothing exists beyond this brief flash of light, then lets make the most of it. If we're wrong, and much more does exist, then it will be a pleasant surprise.

--Avatar

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Dreaming, I know where you're coming from. It was exactly where I was sitting about a year from now... I'll tell you, I don't think anyone really prefers a creatorless world, or maybe they do, I don't know.

But I have to be honest, inside myself I find a fidelity to truth, and while it's generally an annoying and troublesome thing, it is very insistent.
And whether or not it's a good idea, it demands justification for my beliefs, in order for me to feel confident in myself.

I wish there was an underlying form, and a purpose, and maybe there is, but as far as I've come to see, it isn't making itself readily known.
And it might never make itself readily known.
I was all ready to go on a huge quest for the truth, hunt down the answers, attain enlightenment or nirvana or whatever, and had been doing that for a couple of years...
But then I kind of realized that I might have better things to do... it was a revolting thought at first, but if I was to accept this unknown truth as my purpose for life, I would have to sacrifice a lot to it, and for me to be happy, I had to let it go and begin to live my life...
Of course, I'm always going to be after the answers, if they exist. But I need to be able to look back at my life with happiness whether or not I'm able to acheive some lofty goal.
Before I realized this, I was taking a very bloodguard vow approach to it, living my life in relentless service to the quest for the truth regardless of the outcome.... and when I stepped away from that, my life was absolute hell and terror, for a little while. But the human mind is agile, and resourceful and adaptable, and it only took a few months before I regained ground, and started to experience the real joy of putting my faith in my life and my decisions as opposed to a possible nothing.
It's only been positive from there, by the way.

[hamako]

JemCheeta I honestly prefer a creatorless world. Aside from what I believe, this way we have to face up to our responsibilities, without excuse or panacea.

[The Dreaming]

You all speak of truth. But how can there BE an objective truth without a purpose to this world?

It is just as impossible to prove that there is no God as it is to prove that God exists. So why choose the opposite extreme? (existentialism) Even if oblivion awaits me at the end of my life, am I any worse of than any of you? I will have acted on what I believe to be a universal moral code that comes from what is divine in me. If I live with humility and grace, trying to do all that I can to improve the lives of my fellow man, trying to follow to the best of my ability the wisdom of a man who may very well have been divine, what have I lost when I die? I have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. What do the existentialists have? Only oblivion.

I am NOT saying that people who hold this philosophy are bad people, I just believe that there is no drive to do good when you hold no beliefs in objective good for good itself.

[Worm of Despite]

You all speak of truth. But how can there BE an objective truth without a purpose to this world?

Purpose, to me, is not a part of the universe; it is a part of the moral universe, which is manmade. As I said in an earlier thread, we agree on what has meaning/what has value. Beyond that, nothing exists. At least for me.

And just to clarify: I don't recall saying anything about truth (that's a whole thread unto itself). I did mention seeing things objectively, and that means being uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. I might be wrong, but I don't think purpose is an ingredient in objectivity; you just need facts.

[Fist and Faith]

I only have time at the moment to read Dreaming's first post. My reply is this: Belief is not a choice for me. If I hated life and all the meaninglessness of it, wishing things were otherwise is not evidence that they are. (And btw, I do NOT feel that way about life. The fact that you do not understand how I can find meaning without beliefs of a certain nature does not mean I don't.)

I have read a lot of different ideas about gods/Gods/creators, and some are beautiful, loving, and logical. But there's still no proof that any of them are the Truth. I learn what I can from them about things like love and compassion, and I'm happy about that. But it seems to me that belief in any religious ideas, whether it's an organized religion or one person's unique way of understanding God, is something that people feel. And I don't feel any. I can't manufacture them any more than you can abandon them.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I understand the idea that if you do believe that no one will be worse off..but I question its validity sometimes. Honestly I don't think we can ever be aware of what life would be like without faith in heaven. I could imagine it as either a useless, negative utopian reality of selfishness, or as a humanity taking responsibility and being more active in bettering the world they live in, and preparing it for future generations on the basis of it being the only life they believe in.
But I don't long for a world without faith. It produces some pretty beautiful and amazing things.
Fist and Faith, I'm with you on love and compassion. Those are two of the strongest pillars of my current belief system. Actually, the whole thing sits on love, to be honest.

[The Dreaming]

I understand the idea that if you do believe that no one will be worse off..but I question its validity sometimes. Honestly I don't think we can ever be aware of what life would be like without faith in heaven. I could imagine it as either a useless, negative utopian reality of selfishness, or as a humanity taking responsibility and being more active in bettering the world they live in, and preparing it for future generations on the basis of it being the only life they believe in.
But I don't long for a world without faith. It produces some pretty beautiful and amazing things.
Fist and Faith, I'm with you on love and compassion. Those are two of the strongest pillars of my current belief system. Actually, the whole thing sits on love, to be honest.

Take a look at my "SRD a Deist?" Thread JC. Just because I believe in a creator doesn't mean that I think that we aren't on our own in this world. We make all of the ill in this world, and we are responsible for it. My religion (Roman Catholicism) Holds a philosophy called stewardship. God made humanity stewards of this world, and it is our responsibility through and through. We cannot escape responsibility for the world we live in, though many Christians do believe in escaping the world. This is a fundamental difference in many religions. The Jainist principle (complete removal of oneself from the cares and responsibilities of the world to seek enlightenment) or a deist principle.

[Fist and Faith]

Fist and Faith, I'm with you on love and compassion. Those are two of the strongest pillars of my current belief system. Actually, the whole thing sits on love, to be honest.

Let's hear it for love! Heh. Hey, if you're interested, I posted a short story some time ago, buried back in the Hall.
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1468

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Dreaming, your knowledge of catholicism seems to be considerably greater than most, have you ever spent any time in a seminary or religious school?
I have a friend named Kevin who talked to me about some of the things you've mentioned, and he just entered the St. Mary's major seminary after four years of the borromeo seminary out here by cleveland.

[The Dreaming]

have you ever spent any time in a seminary or religious school?

7th Grade through 12th in the Catholic school system. That's 6 years of religion class. I am flattered that you think I could be in a seminary, but I think looking at my posts in the think-tank would discourage that belief. I just paid attention in class is all.

[Avatar]

To return to topic, My GF just (last night) read me an extract from one of Chaim Potok's excellent books, in which he says something like:

"Life isn't automatically granted meaning. It is up to us to give it meaning by the way we live, to fill it with meaning through our actions, to make it meaningful for ourselves."

--Avatar

[The Dreaming]

There is certainly truth in those words. While I believe life has meaning, damned if I know what that meaning is. At least the atheists have "ensure the survival of one's offspring. Secondary is to ensure the survival of one's species." Existentialism denies even that. I will indeed try to justify my existence with action and acts of compassion and justice.