Kevin's Watch

Some speculation regarding Jeremiah - might he "contain" the Creator?

The Creator is conspicuous in his absense in Runes - but we have Jeremiah mysteriously building replicas of the Land's most important landmarks.

Jeremiah doesn't talk (interfere) or try to influence Linden.

Lord Foul tells Linden thru Anele that no mortal can defeat him. Let's say he is telling the "one word of truth". Who would qualify as not mortal? The Elohim might - but in The One Tree they confessed that they are effectless against him.

"We are what we are-and what we are not, we can never become. [... The] Despiser is a being of another kind entirely. We are effectless against him. That is our Wurd."

The other non-mortals are typically evil and his allies / servants or not powerful enough.

That leaves the Creator. Perhaps, working thru the strictures of Jeremiah's condition, and due to the fact that Foul had Joan pull Jeremiah in to the Land, the Creator can act.

After all, what does the Creator have to lose? With Joan's white gold ring the Arch is already in danger. And the Creator has already told Covenant in The Power That Preserves that Creators don't despair:

"Why should [a Creator] despair? If he cannot bear the world he has made, he can make another."

That might suggest the Creator would risk a move that could rend the Arch in such dire circumstances!

What do my fellow Watchers think?

I do not believe that the Creator is inside of Jeremiah. The one consistence in the Covenant mythos is that the Creator may not act in the Land, for fear of breaking the AoT. I do not believe that has changed.

However, it is my theory that the Creator appeared to Jeremiah, and told him to "be true." Obviously, I have nothing to base this on - it's just my theory.

So far, I am disappointed in Jeremiah, and his part in the story.

I am disappointed that he is not Linden and Covenant's actual son, conceived on Starfare's Gem in their passion. I am disappointed that now, the ultimate battle that I had always pictured, will not take place.

Picture this: Covenant's son, Roger vs. Covenant's son, Jeremiah.
The outcome of the Land hanging in the balance.

For me, this would bring the series full-circle back to the beginning when everything happening in the Land could well have been an outward representation of an internal struggle within Thomas Covenant:

The part of Covenant that loves the Land (Jeremiah) vs. the part of Covenant (Roger) that believes the Land is not real; the part that despises what his real world is trying to do to him.

ur-bane wrote:So far, I am disappointed in Jeremiah, and his part in the story.

I am disappointed that he is not Linden and Covenant's actual son, conceived on Starfare's Gem in their passion. I am disappointed that now, the ultimate battle that I had always pictured, will not take place.

Picture this: Covenant's son, Roger vs. Covenant's son, Jeremiah.
The outcome of the Land hanging in the balance.

For me, this would bring the series full-circle back to the beginning when everything happening in the Land could well have been an outward representation of an internal struggle within Thomas Covenant:

The part of Covenant that loves the Land (Jeremiah) vs. the part of Covenant (Roger) that believes the Land is not real; the part that despises what his real world is trying to do to him.

Wow!
Every once in a while I read a post like this and it's like somebody whacked me on the head with a baseball bat!

That would have been awesome the way you described it!!!

I wonder if Donaldson's story will be better than that.

Giving the Land (and its captive) power over people's minds is one thing, but events occurring in the Land going so far as to alter physical reality as well? I think Donaldson is avoiding that for a reason. It subtly but significantly alters the nature of the Land in a way that not just makes Unbelief very questionable, but completely and utterly wrong. I don't think Donaldson wants to do that. Such an event as the Sibling Brawl might still happen, since I see Covenant becoming a strong father figure to Jeremiah. Does it really matter if they're related genetically? If later on in the story Covenant comes to view Jeremiah as his son, and Jeremiah views Covenant as his father, that should be all that matters.

UrLord wrote:Giving the Land (and its captive) power over people's minds is one thing, but events occurring in the Land going so far as to alter physical reality as well? I think Donaldson is avoiding that for a reason. It subtly but significantly alters the nature of the Land in a way that not just makes Unbelief very questionable, but completely and utterly wrong. I don't think Donaldson wants to do that. Such an event as the Sibling Brawl might still happen, since I see Covenant becoming a strong father figure to Jeremiah. Does it really matter if they're related genetically? If later on in the story Covenant comes to view Jeremiah as his son, and Jeremiah views Covenant as his father, that should be all that matters.

I would agree with your logic .... IF Linden did not have the Covenant's white gold ring upon awaking. I also had hoped Linden's son would be from Covenant - oh well ....

Me too. So romantic.... *sigh*

Ah, well. UrLord might be right -- maybe Covenant will sort of adopt Jeremiah, and we may get our Sibling Brawl in Book 4, after all.

I most fervently hope that there will not be a cataclysmic finale between Roger and Jeremiah. An encounter? Perhaps. But I find Thomas dealing with Roger to be much more interesting, and not just from the sense of plot. This is a son that was taken away from his father, against the father's will. Now the son is in the land working (ostensibly) against the father's will. This is exactly the stuff that SRD writes into his books, forcing characters to make the most painful of choices.

There aren't any painful choices if Jeremiah and Roger have "words". I never thought of Linden's child being a love child, but I'm glad it wasn't. That would be too romance-novel for SRD.

The art covers on fantasy novels are bad enough (there are people who wouldn't buy one simply because the covers are often so ridiculous), the less the interior relates to a romance novel, the better.

I like the idea of an "encounter," certainly. But not a "cataclysmic finale."

What really interests me, and from your post, you as well Burg, is how Roger will affect Covenant's decisions, and how Jeremiah will affect Linden's. Also, how Linden's dislike (or rather hatred, perhaps) of Roger will affect the dealing(s) she is sure to have with Covenant.

Perhaps the "encounter" would be similar to Mhoram and the Raver......insightful for us as readers, a chance to delve into their minds,but perhaps not plot-altering.

I used the word "perhaps" way too much.....sorry.

ur-bane wrote: ....
I used the word "perhaps" way too much.....sorry.

Perhaps you did!

To resurrect this -

SRD always names his characters with great care. Jeremiah, of course, is a prophet of the Old Testament. Now, I haven't read the entire book of Jeremiah (I'm simply not interested), but there is one salient point within the book.

Jeremiah found it difficult to talk to man (ostensibly to preach, be a prophet, etc) until his mouth was touched by the hand of God.

This seems rather powerful, in the sense that Jeremiah is not, indeed, the Creator. Still, all of his miraculous creations with Tinker Toys, Legos and the sort, are rather remarkable and must speak to something. What, though, is difficult to say. Perhaps if I read the entire book of Jeremiah, I'd get it. But, as I said, I have no interest in doing so. If someone has, and has more insight, hop up and speak!

burgs...

To resurrect this -

SRD always names his characters with great care. Jeremiah, of course, is a prophet of the Old Testament. Now, I haven't read the entire book of Jeremiah (I'm simply not interested), but there is one salient point within the book.

Jeremiah found it difficult to talk to man (ostensibly to preach, be a prophet, etc) until his mouth was touched by the hand of God.

This seems rather powerful, in the sense that Jeremiah is not, indeed, the Creator.

heeey! nice catch. i was CERTAIN that there was something about that name but was way to lazy to read ANY of Jeremiah!! thanks! maybe i'll get it out later and peruse!

Thanks!

I forgot to mention, in my post, the obvious implication that Jeremiah comes to us, at the end of Runes, whooping and hollering, cheering everyone forward.

So he speaks...was he touched by the hand of the Creator?

I'm definitely going to (re-)read the Book of Jeremiah over the weekend, but meanwhile here is a little complication: earlier in the series and in The Power that Preserves in particular, it was Lord Foul who had all of those allusions to the Old Testament God heaped upon him.

burgs wrote: So he speaks...was he touched by the hand of the Creator?

In all liklihood, I find this difficult to believe. If the Creator "reacheing his hand through the Arch" to aid his Earth would destroy the Arch, how then could Jeremiah be touched by his hand? I find it more likely that this is either a) an impostor or b) an act of Foul or c)(Don't read this if you did not read danlo's Fatal Revenant thread with the SRD reading)

Spoiler

the Theomoch's work

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The Elohim are likely candidates as well. Elohim is another word for God.

Oh, absolutely! I forgot about those pesky buggers. Just as they silenced Covenant's mind, they may have restored Jeremiah's. Then the questions become: To what end? And was an Appointed involved? And if so, Appointed for what?

If it were the Elohim, I don't think they would an Appointed for that task - they would simply do it. Whether there is an Appointed involved, though, would make an entirely different story.

burgs brought up a good point there about Jeremiah at the end of Runes.

Funny thing is, about two months ago my dad and I were talking about Runes and he said the same thing burgs did. ie Jeremiah has his wits about him at the end of Runes.

And it was like an explosion in my brain. I could have slapped myself silly for not noticing it. I'd read Runes three times already and every time it quite apparently slipped by me.

I can't wait for Fatal Revenant!

Jeremiah is definitely gonna be an interesting character now that he seems to be more receptive to his surroundings...and hopefully will be able to shed some light on all the questions about him.

I have now read the Book of Jeremiah and my conclusion is that Jeremiah (non-Biblical) is definitely possessed by Lord Foul if the Bible is any guide.

In the beginning Jeremiah is called by God to be a prophet. Jeremiah says he doesn't know how; he's too young. God says he'll put the words in Jeremiah's mouth.

So Jeremiah starts to prophetize to the people. He is a prophet of mega-doom. He preaches in great length that everyone is doomed and it's their own fault. The word "dismay", one of Lord Foul's favorites, gets repeated use. The Community of Retribution must have liked the Book of Jeremiah. (The Bible passage in the first chapter of The Power that Preserves is also very much similar in tone, but from some other prophet.) Some things like a cauldron in the north and frequent mentions of fire and making the land into a desert sound like the skurj. Some mentions also might fit with a widespread darkness over the Land coming along the lines of the title of The Last Dark.

Jeremiah is not a happy camper. His fellow people don't like him and even God isn't particularly nice to him. When Jeremiah complains about how his wounds will never heal and stuff, God's answer is essentially, "Get over it." Later Jeremiah wishes he was never born, but he consoles himself by hoping that God will punish the people who are mean to him. Jeremiah must keep prophetizing, since if he doesn't, he feels like he is on fire. (Just imagine what a non-metaphorical version of this would be like as administered by Lord Foul, non-Biblical Jeremiah's possessor.) Later still, Baruk, Jeremiah's scribe, also suffers and all God gives Baruk is a promise not to let Baruk die.

Jeremiah moves on to prophetize about how everyone in Israel and Judea will die of plague, sword, or famine, or be taken to captivity. This is in reference to an invasion by Babylon. (It is too early to play spot-the-Babylon in the Last Chronicles so I don't know if this has any connection to them.) Due to his preaching of inevitable failure, he is taken captive by the officials during the siege of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is later taken by the Babylonians with famous consequences.

Jeremiah wraps up his career by preaching God's forgiveness to Jews and, most prominently, doom to all the non-Jew nations he can think of.

Incidentally, I think the creation of which the Land is part is called... Diassomer Mininderain! That part of the Bible is rife with talking about cities and countries as if they were women, and I suspect Diassomer Mininderain in the Clave's creation myth is a similar case. Even the marital unfaithfulness is from the Bible. It is used frequently as a metaphor for worshipping the wrong gods.