Kevin's Watch

OK, Hile Troy tells us that he was hanging on a balcony for dear life before he was brought to the Land. To me this leaves two possibilities:

1) He fell in the real world and his body is on Earth.

2) He was translated body and soul to the Land.

To expand on number one, I think that he fell once his fingers gave out, but the fire department caught him before he hit the ground. But now, he is in some type of coma while he is in the Land. This coma, of course, lasts the 10 years between Coventants visits to the Land. Since we see Coventant come back physically in the first novel the way he went in, something might have impaled Hile Troy in the hospital like he is impaled by the Krill that Sunder is wielding. Or something.

To expand on number two. The fireman probably never found his body and believed it totally consumed in the fire.

What do you people think about what happened to Hile Troy's body??

B

I also believe in the coma theory. I believe that he died in the "real world" the moment that Sunder ran the krill through him.

Nah, he died in the real world. Like Covenant died in the real world in TWL, then he "died" again at the end of WGW.

That kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if someone in the real world decided to do a little euthanasia on Troy in the middle of his 10 year coma? Would Caer-Caveral have dropped over dead?

Satansheart Soulcrusher wrote:Nah, he died in the real world. Like Covenant died in the real world in TWL, then he "died" again at the end of WGW.

How do you know that Covenant died in TWL?

To me, the moment that Foul struck him down with wild magic was the exact moment his life ended in the "real world."

Agreed.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Troy never existed in the real world. Remember at the end of the Illearth War, Covenant tried to call up the DND to find out what happened to Troy and they said he never existed.

Troy, belike, is an externalization of the part of Covenant that wants to help the Land, and is desperate enough to take extravagant measures--just as Foul is an externalization of Covenant's own Despite

Of course they said he never existed. He was part of a top secret military think tank.

Reynard Ashmelayn wrote:Troy, belike, is an externalization of the part of Covenant that wants to help the Land, and is desperate enough to take extravagant measures--just as Foul is an externalization of Covenant's own Despite

That, unfortunately, does not explain how Hile Troy can have sufficient reality to be a viewpoint character. And Troy had one characteristic that Covenant hadn't enough of to bother externalizing: swaggering self-confidence. Hubris. Chutzpah. Oy vey, did Troy have chutzpah.

Mhoram was a viewpoint character in The Power That Preserves, and he had no existence in the real world.

And just because Troy was part of a think tank wouldn't neccesitate the denial of his very existence. They'd just say he was a janitor or something.

Reynard Ashmelayn wrote:Mhoram was a viewpoint character in The Power That Preserves, and he had no existence in the real world.

He had no existence in Covenant's world. That doesn't mean he wasn't real. In effect, the use of Mhoram's POV in TPTP demonstrates that Covenant's Unbelief was factually false.

Hile Troy is a different case, because he was summoned to the Land from somewhere. That may or may not have been Covenant's 'real' world, but he obviously wasn't a native of the Land.

And just because Troy was part of a think tank wouldn't neccesitate the denial of his very existence. They'd just say he was a janitor or something.

That's not how the Department of Defense works. If one of their employees is doing work so deeply classified that they can't say where he's employed, they don't give out false information; they just refuse to give out any information at all.

'I'm sorry, sir, that's classified. I'm sorry, sir, there is no such think tank, we don't even have think tanks here, and if we did, there wouldn't be anybody named Smith there, in fact I don't think there's anybody named Smith in the whole entire Pentagon, and by the way, sir, there is no such person as me here, either, and you didn't hear me say this. Have a good day, sir!'

Read it again. The DOD never said Troy didn't exist! They told TC that if Troy did work in a "think tank" as TC described, they couldn't give him any information on Troy. That rings very true.

So does the notion that whoever Covenant was eventually transferred to honestly wouldn't have the slightest idea of whether Troy existed or not. The DOD has many, many, many employees, and no one handling calls from the outside would be familiar with all of them, especially those doing top secret work!

Mhoram may have no existence in the Real World, but his presence in The Land itself is easy to explain: he was born there.

Covenant's presence is easy to explain, too: he was brought over from the Real World.

So are some implying that a third way a person can get to The Land is to not exist at all, but to be called into being by Atiarin? So what, Troy had no parents? He was just brought into being in The Land, complete with memories of Covenant's world?

Doesn't seem likely.

Covenant didn't die in TWL, because Linden found him still alive at the end of TOT.

Reynard, lots of grocery stores, much less the Department of Defense, wouldn't confirm or deny if some guy called up and asked if you worked there. They figure their employees have a right to privacy, and who are you and what business is it of yours anyway?

They wouldn't tell some random stranger who called up that Troy was an employee. They would tell him nothing except that they wouldn't tell him anything.

Variol Farseer wrote: Hile Troy is a different case, because he was summoned to the Land from somewhere. That may or may not have been Covenant's 'real' world, but he obviously wasn't a native of the Land.

I'm pretty sure he was from Covenant's 'real' world - he told Covenant he'd read his book.

Variol Farseer wrote: He had no existence in Covenant's world. That doesn't mean he wasn't real. In effect, the use of Mhoram's POV in TPTP demonstrates that Covenant's Unbelief was factually false.

It's not that clear to me. Even within the framework of the book, the Land itself isn't totally real. Not totally false, either, but not totally real. That's part of the paradox central to the first triology, which is what appeals to me as a reader.

Case in point, Lord Foul. If I were Kevin, and somebody introduced himself to me as "Mr. Foul," I'd think there was something afoot there. It would be like if someone walked into my workplace and introduced himself as Sam Hitler. Yet, SRD intentionally named the antithesis Lord Foul, and I don't think it was a simple lack of creativity--witness all of his other books, SRD has plenty of creativity. Foul is named Foul for a reason.

Even beyond the willing suspension of disbelief that is necessary of every reader, we're not meant to accept everything in the series as exactly what it seems.

Akasri wrote:I'm pretty sure he was from Covenant's 'real' world - he told Covenant he'd read his book.

That's not really conclusive. When I dream, the people around me all know who I am and what I'm doing, even when they have no existence in the waking world. If I'd written a bestseller, I'd probably dream about people who'd read it, too.

Reynard Ashmelayn wrote:

Variol Farseer wrote: He had no existence in Covenant's world. That doesn't mean he wasn't real. In effect, the use of Mhoram's POV in TPTP demonstrates that Covenant's Unbelief was factually false.

It's not that clear to me. Even within the framework of the book, the Land itself isn't totally real. Not totally false, either, but not totally real. That's part of the paradox central to the first triology, which is what appeals to me as a reader.

But it's more or less completely abandoned in the second trilogy. Certainly Linden never found any use or value in Covenant's Unbelief, and Covenant himself had more or less outgrown the need for it. In Runes, still more strongly — this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, so I won't label it a spoiler — Linden takes it for granted that the Land is real, even before she is summoned again. She suspects various people in her world of being under the influence of the Despiser.

The only person who ever seemed to believe in Unbelief was Covenant himself. And his reasons, I must say, were rather flimsy, being founded in his own psychological traumas rather than in a rational examination of the evidence. He needed the Land to be a dream; for him, Unbelief was an appallingly masochistic form of wishful thinking.

If you have the time (I don't today) look through SRD's October and November gradual interview post's. I think he addressed the issue of whether Hile Troy was "real" in the "real world"; I think he said he intended for him to have indeed been "real".

As far as them confirming or denying employment, that's actually against the law...

Providing details is illegal, confirming employment is not. Otherwise it would be impossible for potential employers to check references. In which case, there's no sense in bothering to try to do a good job at work, since you can always quit your job, and when the next potential employer calls the previous employer that you just screwed over, the former employer would be required by law to deny your existence.

EDIT: Besides, that's irrelevant. Law is not the opposite of Despite.

I don't know why, but I found that incongruously hilarious!