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The Laughing Man
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Post by The Laughing Man »

Sweet dreams are made of this ... have we solved the Freudian riddle?
Swiss doctors, writing in the Annals of Neurology, describe the case of a 73-year-old woman who suffered a stroke to the occipital lobe of her brain. This region is responsible for the processing of visual information and, unsurprisingly, the stroke impaired the patient's sight. A few days later she regained her sight, but a new problem emerged which astonished the doctors: the patient stopped dreaming.
Current Ideas about REM Sleep, Dreams and Dreaming: Confirmations of Psychoanalytic Ideas about Dreams
We have reviewed the function of dreaming and the causes for dreaming. What about the mechanism of dreaming? Is there a connection between Freud's ideas and neuroscientific evidence?
Yes, in regression where dreaming reverses the normal sequence of perceptual events. When awake we perceive something from the outside and then process the information in the cortex. In dreams, there are internally generated images, which are fed backwards as if coming from the outside and abstract thoughts are converted into concrete perceptions. That is why there is a cessation of dreaming when there is damage to the gray cortex at the back of the brain (occipito-temporo-parietal junction) which is where the brain performs the highest level of processing of perceptual information.
Echoing your "dropped on your head" "confession" ;) heh, --A, I experienced an event while "downhill sledding" as a 6 yr old. We were on a hill in the neighborhood in the winter "slidin'" as we called it, and there was a large solid brick building at the bottom to the left somewhat of our bottom of the hill target: a "jump" we built up to fly over into the parking lot at the end of the run. About 8 of us piled on top of each other in a stack on one sled, and prepared to "blast off", heh. I was on the bottom! 8O Well, we started off okay, but halfway down, the sled veered sharply to the left, straight at the brick building! I was trapped on the bottom, frozen with fear, and by the time anybody could react, we slammed right into that wall at about 10 mph or more, me FACE FIRST. 8O . I still see that wall coming at me to this day. "Anxiety", heh. My forehead was slightly flat for about a month or two, with a little "brick impression", and I remember my face and coat were soaked with some kinda "liquid". I think this was "sinal fluids", and my nose was broken in that process. I ran home screaming, and back then there wasn't any "catscans" or "MRI" in the common vocabulary, so my mom assumed if I was still walking and talking okay, everything would be OK. She did monitor me for concussions and wouldn't let me sleep for quite awhile later that night, tho, and monitored my behavior quite closely after that for any "symptoms".

I have always "fancied" this "brain trauma" and "social betrayal" (trusting a group for my welfare) to have affected my "social skills" somehow, and has contributed to my "difficulty communicating" with others, ;) and relating to a "common group" as a member. :roll:
I always have some weird angle on things, and usually outpace a conversation by a few steps talking "about the end" when the rest of the crowd was "still in the middle" of a topical conversation. Analytical machine, processing - processing - processing. I have always enjoyed this seperation ultimately, but not always, heh, not many "enjoy" being an outsider, but are forced to comply with the inherent judgement of ones peers, because this has allowed me to pursue a resolute path of curiosity, discovery, and supposition about the nature and structure of life itself, unencumbered by "social demands". Tailor made for a "disciple" of Don Juan and Carlos, the core principle in their practices being dreaming and perception, who I absolutely admire and trust more than those who seek Jesus, Buddha or that Zen guy, heh.

In other words, the trauma was a necessary and vital factor in my development and critical to it's path and progress. Maybe, heh. But I am incredibly visual, and dream quite frequently, randomly, and uncontrollably. "Lucid Dreaming" is something that I have quite forgotten about by the time I am "going to sleep", and sleeping itself is almost like crack to me. I could somtimes just sleep and sleep, and have remained in bed for entire weekends sometimes, gettin up only for "necessities", heh.
Enough for now, and ur-bane, that dying deal must have been super freaky, heh. wow. 8O
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Post by Prebe »

ur-bane wrote:But I cannot feel, taste, or smell anything in my dreams. It is almost as if those senses don't exist in dreams, as if the part of the brain that processes that information shuts down for my dreams.
Ditto. Can anyone else second this lack of senses?

I have a very accute sense of time while sleeping. I have become aware of that while looking after my son, who usually wakes up 2 to 3 times every night. I have made it a sport to check a clock after having given him his pacifier (also to gather data for the martyrdom storry I tell my wife, when she wakes up at 7:30). I am usually able to say what time it is with 15 minutes accuracy, unless I'm drunk.
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Interesting. The "flat spot" on my head is located right over the occipital lobe, high in the back.

On top of that, as a child I also suffered two cases of meningoencephalitis, a combination of an infection in the spinal fluid, and the swelling of the brain lining.

I count myself damn lucky, because it leaves many people with permanent brain damage, (no jokes please ;) ), and I escaped both bouts pretty unscathed, apart from four parrallel scars on the right hemisphere, also toward the back.

I have occasionally wondered what, if any, effect that has on the development of my thought processes. But since it doesn't appear to have had any negative consequences that I'm aware of, I don't think about it much anymore.

--A
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Post by Prebe »

Well it looks like we actually answered a question here. :bwave:
Avatar's way of thinking/not dreaming is simply due to physical damage of the occipital lobe.

Well Googled The Esmer!
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Post by Avatar »

Well, it's certainly a potential answer.

BTW, my actual time sense is fairly accurate, in that I can also usually guess the time to within 15 minutes or so.

What I sometimes don't have is a sense of the already passed passage thereof. In fact, re-reading this thread yesterday made me aware of something I meant to mention to Syl at the time.

That time problem I have is more along these lines: Say, for example, I walk from home to the shops. I'll remember doing so, but when I arrive there, I frequently don't feel as though it took any time to accomplish.

Other than that, my idea of what is recent seems at odds with most peoples. "The other day" means, to me, any time in the last few weeks, and "recently" means any time in the last few months.

Because my memories are static, everything feels like it just happened.

--A
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Post by Prebe »

Perhaps selectively damaging a section of the brain might be an advantage in certain jobs?
:)
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Post by Avatar »

Or the reverse? Doing something monotonous and not feeling as though time had passed would be terrible.

(BTW -- Time guessing only accurate when I'm awake, not immediately on awakening.)

--A
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Post by Gil galad »

I definitly have a minds eye in the sense that i can distinguish my mind from my physical body. About the best example i can give is to consider the feeling of pain or cold, your nerves are sending your brain a signal telling you that something bad is happening, but its up to the mind to choose to react. Nature has conditioned us to almost always react to sudden pain, but if i'm calm and prepared, i can ignore a reasonable amount of pain just by reminding myself of that the pain really is, simply my nerves sending a signal, that what is happening to my body is independent of my mind, it is my choice to react to it. Its not blocking out the pain, its just understanding that its my minds choice to react to what my body is telling me.

Obviously its not possible to do this all the time, if something hurts you suddenly like a burn, there is very little mind control over the pain reflex, but recently i had to have some shell cut out of my foot (from the beach) and i found this technique worked really well for dealing with it.
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Post by The Laughing Man »

:goodpost:
Prebe wrote:Perhaps selectively damaging a section of the brain might be an advantage in certain jobs?
:)
The Esmer wrote:Perhaps selectively damaging a section of the brain might be an advantage in certain prisons?
:)
Avatar, how has this affected your "hallucinatory" abilities? What does a "vision" look like, if you've ever been "subjected" to them thru "ingestion", perhaps? (I'm imagining "the little voice" in your head all of a sudden starts talking like it inhaled helium and it started laughing hard, heh. "hey, avatar, can you hear my voice? hahahehehahaha" :lol: )

I myself have never "full on" hallucinated, but my mental images and thought processes were "considerably altered", shall we say. Things got wavy and jumpy, and funny as hell, but I always attributed that to the quality, specifically lack thereof, of the "stuff" I was doing. Mostly crap, heh, but it "did the trick". ;)
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Post by lucimay »

speaking of good posting :goodpost: ;)

Prebe wrote:
Perhaps selectively damaging a section of the brain might be an advantage in certain jobs?

The Esmer wrote:
Perhaps selectively damaging a section of the brain might be an advantage in certain prisons?



Avatar, how has this affected your "hallucinatory" abilities? What does a "vision" look like, if you've ever been "subjected" to them thru "ingestion", perhaps? (I'm imagining "the little voice" in your head all of a sudden starts talking like it inhaled helium and it started laughing hard, heh. )
hey Av...i'm interested too. what say you? describe "hallucinatory" in Av's head.
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Post by [Syl] »

Av and I are pretty similar in this, so I'll tell you my experience. And I can do it one word. Nautilus. Yeah, I've seen a few small effects, mainly light and pixelation effects, but the majority of the trip is mental, and there is one mental image that I always had. A nautilus shell. It's not that I saw it, it's just that my thoughts were... fragmented and compartmentalized, working in a spiral pattern, always existing in seven (fairly sure on that) compartments... or phases. Almost like having seven brains, identical but tuned to a different frequency, only being able to use one at a time and always having to use them in sequence.

It was not at all like dreaming.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
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Post by The Laughing Man »

the number 7 is quite prevelant "roundabouts" the "theological" sets, it seems. maybe you were "seeing" your "chakra"? Sounds like it to me, or something like it. Did you "learn" anything from it? Was knowledge obtained that was revelatory and enlightening in any way? The shell shape is also very significant I would say, too. Nature, and form, perfect and functional in itself. 8)

Image
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Post by lucimay »

8O revelatory. how very alert. what was the ingested material?? (if you don't mind me asking, if you do don't respond)
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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Post by [Syl] »

[The only zen you find on the mountaintops is the zen you take with you.]

Revalatory? Perhaps, perhaps. Is it revalatory to learn how to walk around your house in the dark? Is a new song? Perhaps learning a new card trick? I'd say so, but I wouldn't attach any undue importance to it, if you know what I mean. My guess is that it had to do more with intelligence structures of the brain than mysticism.

The material was acid. Tabs, paper, and cubes (tho the cubes were usually the weakest). The mental effect was similar for all. MDMA and shrooms didn't have anywhere near the same kind of effect.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
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Post by lucimay »

My guess is that it had to do more with intelligence structures of the brain than mysticism.

the intelligence structures of the brain are fairly mystic to me
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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Post by The Laughing Man »

Lucimay wrote:
My guess is that it had to do more with intelligence structures of the brain than mysticism.

the intelligence structures of the brain are fairly mystic to me
The Esmer wrote:the mystic structures of intelligence are fairly the brain to me
Syl, btw, what were the differences between the "7 brains"? did they each perform a seperate function? How did they differ and interrelate?
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Post by Avatar »

Like Syl, the word "hallucination" is pretty much a misnomer. Visual effects strictly limited, mainly to distortions, enhanced pattern recognition, (seeing "pictures" in patterns, usually faces/eyes/figures).

By far the majority of it is the mental side, although I can't say I've ever experienced a "segmentation" like Syl does.

Hell, trying to describe a trip is usually a hiding to nowhere. Every one is different, and everyone is different. ;)

When I've taken acid, (aah, so long now), that "little voice" is clear as a bell. All thought processes seem intent and intense. They are however also random, and easily diverted, but it's my personal experience that significant insights are possible, especially with a little discipline.

As for "levels" in the brain, I usually perceive about 5 or so, even when I'm completely straight, all performing different parts of an inter-related function -- Thought.

As Syl said, effects most noticable on LSD. Shrooms much less intense, (less chemical edge) and MDMA, I don't consider an "hallucinogenic" at all.

Real hallucinations mean seeing things that aren't there at all. Very rare that acid does that to anybody really.

--Avatar
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Post by The Laughing Man »

The stuff Timothy Leary and his "band of merry chemists" allegedly had the "pure stuff", which was "guaranteed" to send you to "another world", heh. I read a High Times article years ago that touched upon the strict environment and particular talent that was needed for a "good batch", and really hasn't been pursued under those conditions since that time long ago, and the majority of acid found these days and for a long time is just diluted strichnine, or arsenic, or some such. just enough to "alter" your senses. LSD is also derived from the mold that grows on rye, and was thought to be responsible for "mass delusions and hysteria", I believe. It was this phenomenon that led the scientist to "discover" it. I'm too tired to google it, just remembered reading something about it, heh.
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Post by Avatar »

The ergot fungus, which, as well as producing mass hysteria/delusions, (often believed to be "religious revelations") had some very unpleasant side-effects like the blackening of extremities, etc.

--A
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Post by Prebe »

LSD, as I recal, is not the halucinogenic compound in ergot. It is ergotamine (wonder where it got it's name).
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