Kevin's Watch

No, I don't mean a pay-per-view fight, though that would be interesting...

I've posted this in SRD's Gradual Interview, hoping it gets picked, but I thought I might post it here, get your thoughts and views on this.

In preparing for Runes, I went back and reread the first two chrons (didn't we all?? ), and I noticed several similarities between characters in Jordan's WOT saga, and the TC books. There are two that really stood out to me:

1. Ur-viles vs. Myrddraal. Both have extremely similar physical features in that they're mostly all black, have no eyes, and are quite powerful. You could even go so far as to compare Cavewights to Trollocs. In TC, when you see ur-viles, you see Cavewights. In WOT, where you see Myrddraal, you see Trollocs. This seemed almost too large of a similarity to consider it a coincidence.

2. Loial vs. Saltheart Foamfollower. Both characters are "giant"-ish in nature, both are closely connected to the main character and have been a constant source of support. Loial not so much as he's all but disappeared in the last few WOT books, and so did Foamfollower as well. But also in their personalities, I just that the connection was not a coincidence.

What are your thoughts, to those who read the WOT books? Have you noticed it before? Just curious, please tell me I'm not crazy (okay, don't answer that last question there...)

James

1. Ur-viles vs. Myrddraal. Both have extremely similar physical features in that they're mostly all black, have no eyes, and are quite powerful. You could even go so far as to compare Cavewights to Trollocs. In TC, when you see ur-viles, you see Cavewights. In WOT, where you see Myrddraal, you see Trollocs. This seemed almost too large of a similarity to consider it a coincidence.

But Myrdraal are human in all ways save their lack of eyes (well, and their abilities); thus Troy would be a much closer parallel than ur-viles (or Waynhim, or Sandgorgons).

IIRC, Myrdraal dress in black but some at least, have pale skin. Ur-viles are black and AFAICT don’t wear cloaks, hats, etc.

Trollocs would seem more similar to Illearth Stone-warped beast/human creatures than to Cavewights. In any case, they’re obviously orc-inspired.

2. Loial vs. Saltheart Foamfollower. Both characters are "giant"-ish in nature, both are closely connected to the main character and have been a constant source of support. Loial not so much as he's all but disappeared in the last few WOT books, and so did Foamfollower as well. But also in their personalities, I just that the connection was not a coincidence.

IOW, both have similarities to ents (size, strength, longevity, gravitas). Foamfollower and Loial (like Quickbeam, and to a certain extent Treebeard) are also unusually “hasty” by the standards of their own race (in Loial’s case, because of his youth) though comically deliberate from our human POV.

The WOT clearly owes a lot to Tolkien (which RJ has freely acknowledged) and IMO also some to Dune (though WOT fans often react violently to any comparison of the Aiel to the Fremen. To be fair, you could make the point that each could be independently inspired by the Bedouin.).

But I really don’t see any TWOT-TCOTC links. Eyeless creatures are not unknown in legend, and the Myrdraal just don’t seem that similar to any of Donaldson’s creations.

Heh, well, if you're curious, we've already written a few lame crossover "fights" between Wot and Covenant characters. You can see them here - wam.umd.edu/~resop/cross.html

-jay

The fights kick much ass Jay.

kevinswatch wrote:Heh, well, if you're curious, we've already written a few lame crossover "fights" between Wot and Covenant characters. You can see them here - wam.umd.edu/~resop/cross.html

-jay

LOL!!!! Those were great, thanks Jay! Especially the one with Lord Foul and The Dark One.

Yeah, reading Thaale's post, maybe I did read a touch too much into it. But the relations just seemed to strong to be coincidental. That could be, though, because I'm usually reading one of the WOT books at the same time, so I've got both sets in my head at the same time. Just thought I'd see what y'all thought about it.

James

kevinswatch wrote:Heh, well, if you're curious, we've already written a few lame crossover "fights" between Wot and Covenant characters. You can see them here - wam.umd.edu/~resop/cross.html

-jay

I think all epic-fantasy-strange-land-in-peril-by-powerful-supernatuaral-being-opposed-by-the-good-people-of-the-land are necessarily similar, without actually borrowing from each other. I personally don't see much similarilty between TC & WOT as such, more similarities with each and LOTR: single powerful enemy previously weakened by ancient heroes, main hero unaware of their importance & role, powerful ring (obviously), ancient lieutenants of power (Nazgul, Ravers, Forsaken).

But those crossovers are tremendous - esp the Ranyhin vs Bela

ill take all them punks on...and WIN!!!

I see the Wheel of Time series and the Chronicles having similarities only in the sense of common themes you see in Fantasy, but completely independent of each other.

For example, Fantasy in general loves horses, gentle-hearted giants, and meek heros with potential never realized before. Woodland creatures are friends to the Earth, and sometime in the past great lore was present that has been lost.

If you compare the main charcters in these stories (Rand Al-thor, Aes Sedai, the Forsaken, Matt and Perry vs. TC, Linden, Lord Foul, the High Lords, Stonedowners), each is very unique.

At least SRD and RJ are not Tolkien "me too's" with nothing but rehashed stories and characters from LOTR.

I also don't see many post here about L.E. Modessit Jr. His Recluse series and other books are always an enjoyable read that are very unique to themselves. I particularly enjoy some of his sci fi offshoots -- he does well with technology and the constant theme of a hero that simply outworks everyone else through blood, sweat and tears always gets me psyched up to get things done and go clean that garage I keep putting off.

Tom