Kevin's Watch

Okay. I'd like to start off by saying this thread is by no means an attempt to upset or offend anyone or their particular beliefs. In the short time I have been here at Kevin's Watch, I have been impressed with the vast number of intelligent and well-spoken members ... which is why I decided to ask your thoughts on this matter.

For those of you who don't know, I come from a small city in the Canadian Prairies where the majority of people are simple, God-fearing folk. This is pretty much a farming community influenced a great deal by old-fashion values ... it would make a good "television-town", (good people, very little crime, nice to look at, etc.), ya know?

I've been in Regina for 25 years now, and I like to live here (for many reasons). But when people look at me (long hair, black leather jacket) and the music I listen to (Heavy Metal) I get accused of being a Satanist all the time ... (and sometimes even a "biker").

What I'm wondering is this ... what do people even know about Satanism, and how does that apply to me?

A little backstory ... My wonderful parents were the children of German/Russian and Hungarian immigrants. They were Lutherans and raised us in a pretty strict household (respect and responsibility being the two biggest, most important "commandments" at our house), but they brought us up in a fairly relaxed religious environment, letting us make our own choices about God (and pretty much everything else!) when we were able to make informed descisions.

I don't believe in God nor do I adhere to any religious group. I chose my own path without any fixed religious convictions. I work hard, I treat people well, I don't have a criminal record, I don't do drugs, I don't drink (due to a heart condition) and I do the best I can to enjoy my life the way I see fit without negatively impacting the lives of others. To quote a post in another thread; I "Learn, Love and Live". That's not to say I don't have strong opinions about certain matters, or that I'd ever back down from a justified fight ... I'm just your average guy looking out for himself and trying to have a good, fun, and interesting life.

But for some reason, many people figure that I'm evil incarnate just because of the music I listen to and the way I dress. My response was usually to return the insult by pointing out that their opinion is narrow-minded and based solely on ignorance, then I'd move on, having dismissed them as a complete waste of my time. When constantly faced with this type of reaction to being a Metalhead, it can start to grate on my nerves and become rather bothersome. A few years back, I figured that the next time I'd be confronted with a Metal-hating jackass, I'd be ready ... so I bought a Satanic Bible to help educate myself and the people who see fit to label me a devil-worshipper.

Needless to say, I found it to be about as interesting as the Christian Bible ... which was "not very interesting at all". After reading it, I found that there were indeed a few traits that I possess that could be considered in line with Satanism ... but those traits exist in almost everyone, even most Christians and non-Christians alike! (Please don't be offended by that ... until you read the book, don't condemn me for saying what I believe to be a universal truth about all Humans in general ... ) For the record, there's absolutely nothing in the Satanic bible about eating babies, or sacrificing non-believers, drinking blood or any of that Hollywood bullshite. Anton Levay (the author of The Satanic Bible) isn't that entertaining, truth be told.

Anyway ... I'm just curious what your thoughts are on Satanism. Do you understand/know anything about it? Do you equate Heavy Metal music with the Devil? Have you ever had a conversation with a Satanist? Do you consider Satanism a valid religion, deserving the same level of respect and consideration as your chosen religion? Do Christians view anyone outside of their religion as aligned with Satan? Do Muslims feel that way too?

Again ... my intention with this thread is to start a dialogue about what seems to be (for all intents and purposes) an actual religious movement that never really gets discussed ... and in the end, maybe we can learn something that hadn't occured to us before.

Metal-Demon, you strike me as a keen, questioning individual who can detect BS a mile away. The fact that you went out of your way to actually read a Satanic Bible shows that you are a person committed to seeking answers for yourself, and committed to seeing different sides of an issue. You are someone who backs up what you say, and I applaud you for that. That's especially commendable in a forum devoted to something as ethereal and nebulous as religion and spirituality. I find that a rational, even scientifically oriented discussion of religion is not worth the potential for being completely misunderstood or having what I say taken out of context, so I don't involve myself much in the matters of the Close.

I agree with just about everything you've said, particularly your point about how Hollywood (and I would add the media and religious fundamentalists) tends to blow things out of proportion whenever it suits them to do so.

I don't know much about Satanism myself. It's not exactly something I make an effort to learn about, which is why I admire your willingness to go to the source yourself. But then, I don't concern myself much with any kind of religious belief. It's simply not relevant to my life and the way I view the world and the universe.

Marilyn Manson is an example of someone who dabbled in Satanism (as far as I understand it) and let his experiences come through in his music, but closed-minded folk everywhere were too busy condemning his surface appearance to appreciate what he had to say through his art. They were judging the cover, not the content...and I suspect they're the same kind of people who judge you based on what you wear, Metal-Demon, not on what your character as a human being is.

God must be jealous that Satan gets all the best music.

In actuality, no, I don't equate Heavy Metal in any way with Satan, and I think it's silly to do so. Some of the logic people use in trying to convince themselves that all Rock comes from the devil is absolutely ludicrous...to some people, it doesn't even matter whether the lyrics of the song involve Satan, death, or kitten-roasting, it's the sound of Rock itself that somehow is inherently evil. To some, Christian Rock is evil because it's still Rock, and therefore is corrupted by Satan's evil essence. The only explanation I've been able to come up with for such silliness is that they must follow the following chain of logic:

1. God is perfectly good.
2. I'm a good man, following God's will.
3. I hate Heavy Metal.
4. Since such a devout servant of God hates Heavy Metal, God must hate it as well.
5. Anything God hates must be evil, since God is perfectly good.
6. All Heavy Metal must be evil.
7. Satan is pure evil, so Heavy Metal is in his domain.
8. A person who enjoys the domain of Satan must be loyal to Satan himself, as I am loyal to God.
9. OMG! A METAL HEAD! HE WORSHIPS THE DEVIL, THAT EVIL-INCARNATE BASTARD!

Sure, why shouldn't satanism be a valid religion? As you say, it's not actually about any of the things that hollywood, or most of the poor dupes who actually consider themselves satanists, make it out to be.

As long as nobody is getting hurt, why shouldn't they be free to worship as they choose? And what difference does it make which deity you worship? As someone, possibly Satre, (could have been Voltaire) once said, "if satan were ever to defeat god, he would be forced to assume the attributes of divinity".

On the whole, "satanism" is probably turned to as an act of rebellion. I doubt that any satanist takes his religion as seriously as christians do, or even go to the trouble of finding out exactly what it is all about. Hollywood has a much more powerful influence than some book, and that imagery is probably exactly what they want. Sensationalism rules.

Even in my country, there are occaisional rumors of satanic cults and rituals, in which the information is so garbled that either they are simply fitting circumstances to assumptions, (and there are millions of assumptions), or the people doing it are trying to match that image.

UrLord, great piece of logic there. Really like it.

MatrixMan-- I wish you would participate more, both here and in the Think-Tank. Your posts are always intelligent, articulate, and well thought out, and could never do other than add to the quality of the debate. And as for being misunderstood, well, thats why we have these debates in the first place. To try and reduce misunderstanding.

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Metal-Demon wrote:Anyway ... I'm just curious what your thoughts are on Satanism. Do you understand/know anything about it? Do you equate Heavy Metal music with the Devil? Have you ever had a conversation with a Satanist? Do you consider Satanism a valid religion, deserving the same level of respect and consideration as your chosen religion?

I dabbled in Satanism before becoming atheist. But first, a little background:

I was raised in a Southern Baptist household, which is perhaps the most fundamental Christian group in the U.S. I'm not surprised the way I came out, though; my family is/was "religiously lazy", best way to put it; I grew up not going to church a lot, so there was no strict routines or teachings pounded in on me--not from church, and certainly not from my family. It was easy to fall out of the habit of believing.

Now, onto my adventures with Satanism:

At first I was a Christian trying my best, then a disenfranchised Christian. My initial reaction was to hate God, so I looked on the websites about Satanism, and there were some immature web sites that appealed to my more perverse, "forbidden fruit" side. Then I ran into the Church of Satanism website (I think that's what it's called). I read up some on Anton LeVay, found it to be just as boring as the "other" take on Christianity, and decided that not believing was the easiest and most comfortable stance to take. So here I am and have been since about 16.

Personally, I'm not sure if I consider Satanism a religion. Maybe it is. The only reason I'm leery to label it right off the bat is because I've never really thought about it. I don't consider atheism a religion (same way I don't consider albino a suntan), and Satanism always felt like a kind of atheism for people who weren't ready to give up God yet (or their concept of God was too deeply engrained to abandon). But that's just my take.

I don't know anything at all about Satanism, but I have been scolded by one of my sisters-in-law (very strict Mormon) about listening to such "Satanic" rock groups as Aerosmith and AC/DC. She even told me that the Aerosmith logo (the A with wings) was some sort of Satanic symbol.

When she (and the other fundamentalists in my husband's family) get going, I tend to tune them out.

I think you make an excellent point when you suggest that Satanism is for people who hate god, but aren't ready to let go of the concept. It's an anti-god religion, and not much more.

Metal-Demon, I meant to quote this in my previous post:

Metal-Demon wrote:Anton Levay (the author of The Satanic Bible) isn't that entertaining, truth be told.

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As a Christian, I've heard statements from other Christians that make me want to run screaming to the hills - like the theory that there's a specific beat that is evil, that was originally used by some primitive tribe or other, that now forms the basis of rock music. Sheesh, why not claim that the colour purple is evil? Apparently, some people think Christianity means tossing rational thought out the window.

Satanism - I know a couple of Satanists, and a number of ex-Satanists. My take on them, which pretty much echoes what others have said, is that they are, in the large, hurting and wounded people, who are angry at God because of experiences they've had.

What really gets to me, is the attitude of people calling themselves Christians, who froth at the mouth about the evils, real or imagined, of Satanists - instead of seeing them as people who need love, who need to shown in practical ways that God is not a monster who hates them.

How can it happen, that the people who are supposed to be spreading the love of Christ on Earth turn out to be the very people who wound people further by labelling them and rejecting them? It saddens me. Just because somebody calls themself a Satanist and rejects God, doesn't make them any less in need of Christ's love - just the opposite, in fact.

(Oh, and while I'm not much of a metal fan, I have been to a Metal Church. It was pretty cool. )

satanism seems more about being anti-Christian than anything. i knew a satanist who was in the church of set. been awhile but it seemed rather cobbled together. the blood drinkers and charlie manson types...urm, not really sure what it is that they are following. but the few professed satanists i have know would have been lost without Christianity to protest.
but i'm no expert. for what it's worth Gaiman had my favorite take on hell in his Sandman series.

duchess of malfi wrote:I don't know anything at all about Satanism, but I have been scolded by one of my sisters-in-law (very strict Mormon) about listening to such "Satanic" rock groups as Aerosmith and AC/DC. She even told me that the Aerosmith logo (the A with wings) was some sort of Satanic symbol.

And there was the time when KISS defended itself against accusations that the acronym stood for Knights In the Service of Satan. The band's music wasn't Satanic...just Sophomoric.

Interesting background, Lord Foul. Have you thought about memoirs? "I Was A Teenage Satanist." But seriously, I like your take on Satanism as a kind of atheism. Something to think about.

Avatar, I think I need to be more bigoted and hatemongering in future postings if I'm to avoid such embarrassing compliments from you. Besides, it's more fun to debate 80's music with Lord Foul in Vespers than it is to argue over deadly serious issues of God and Government.

we must remember that a many Christians believe that drums are satanic. something about that jungle rhythm. seems a tad racist, but hey it is a sincere belief by many folks. i know some who hate hardcore Christian bands because of such logic. oh well.

dennisrwood wrote:...for what it's worth Gaiman had my favorite take on hell in his Sandman series.

As I've posted elsewhere, I certainly agree with that.

MatrixMan, Is it still a compliment if it's true, or is it simply a statement of fact? And for me, it's much more fun to debate these things. I mean, not many people kill each other becuase they have different taste in music. The implications of these debates are far more far-reaching and complicated. And thus, much more fun.

Edge, Great point about satanists needing love and understanding from christians, rather than condemnation. I tell you, it gives me hope for christianity to know that there are people like yourself, and many others here, combatting the negative image so many others portray in the name of their faith.

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Some of the nicest people I have met were metal-heads. Intelligent, fun individuals. I hate how people stereotype metallers as evil.

Loremaster wrote:I hate how people stereotype metallers as evil.

Some people.

Correct.

UrLord wrote:1. God is perfectly good.
2. I'm a good man, following God's will.
3. I hate Heavy Metal.
4. Since such a devout servant of God hates Heavy Metal, God must hate it as well.
5. Anything God hates must be evil, since God is perfectly good.
6. All Heavy Metal must be evil.
7. Satan is pure evil, so Heavy Metal is in his domain.
8. A person who enjoys the domain of Satan must be loyal to Satan himself, as I am loyal to God.
9. OMG! A METAL HEAD! HE WORSHIPS THE DEVIL, THAT EVIL-INCARNATE BASTARD!

Classic! I love it!

Edge wrote:What really gets to me, is the attitude of people calling themselves Christians, who froth at the mouth about the evils, real or imagined, of Satanists - instead of seeing them as people who need love, who need to shown in practical ways that God is not a monster who hates them.

How can it happen, that the people who are supposed to be spreading the love of Christ on Earth turn out to be the very people who wound people further by labelling them and rejecting them? It saddens me. Just because somebody calls themself a Satanist and rejects God, doesn't make them any less in need of Christ's love - just the opposite, in fact.

On a more serious note, while I don't know if i can fully call myself a Christian (as I have said in a thread elsewhere), I try to live as a "good" person and what Edge has said, is what I would expect from a REAL Christian

...seeing them as people who need love, who need to shown in practical ways that God is not a monster who hates them... ...spreading the love of Christ on Earth...

Matrixman wrote:

duchess of malfi wrote:I don't know anything at all about Satanism, but I have been scolded by one of my sisters-in-law (very strict Mormon) about listening to such "Satanic" rock groups as Aerosmith and AC/DC. She even told me that the Aerosmith logo (the A with wings) was some sort of Satanic symbol.

And there was the time when KISS defended itself against accusations that the acronym stood for Knights In the Service of Satan. The band's music wasn't Satanic...just Sophomoric.

Or intentionally simplistic, as others have argued that their name stands for "Keep It Simple, Stupid". I mean, how much complexity do you expect from a song that has the chorus "I wanna rock and roll all nite and party every day"?

Matrixman wrote:Interesting background, Lord Foul. Have you thought about memoirs? "I Was A Teenage Satanist." But seriously, I like your take on Satanism as a kind of atheism. Something to think about.

Heh, well, I was never really a Satanist--just read some websites about it. A bit of the ol' toe dipping in the water bit.

I love metal as much as I love classical music, and I'm a christian, so I would strongly disagree with anyone that thinks metal and satanism are synonomous. I'm far more prone to believe this of country music.

-B

Metal-Demon wrote:But for some reason, many people figure that I'm evil incarnate just because of the music I listen to and the way I dress.

Perhaps calling yourself Demon has something to do with it also?

lhaughlhann wrote:On a more serious note, while I don't know if i can fully call myself a Christian (as I have said in a thread elsewhere), I try to live as a "good" person and what Edge has said, is what I would expect from a REAL Christian

As we've often mentioned, there is a big difference between people who call themselves christians, and those who actually live as if they were christians. Living as a "good" person is all we can try for, regardless of our beliefs. And as far as I'm concerned, that is enough.

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