Kevin's Watch

For some reason, after being up far too late on IM (uh 3:30 a.m. ) having a deep philosophical discussion with a dearly loved friend (whom I've never met in person), I woke up thinking about this question. My friend is an atheist. I'm a sorta-Christian, drawn and repelled at the same time. Drawn by the love of Christ--repelled by the rigidity of religion (and frequent intolerence).

So many people think they know EXACTLY what God wants from us. Do we really? Are we really forced to march lock-step with every thing the Bible says--take everything literally and nothing metaphorically?

What do you think? I'll be very intrigued to hear.

I believe the Ten Commandments pretty much lay down God's doctrine to His children. It's simple really, just walk the path of those Commandments and you live the life God wishes you too.

I don't pretend to know all He wants me to do, but I believe that I live my life the way He would wish me too. I follow the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus. Love, guides me. And God/Jesus are Love.

I don't really kow what to answer to that, when people ask me what I believe (eg God, Jesus and the Bible wise) I always say that the Ten Commandments are a good place to start. Even if one isn't Christian (although some commandments are Christian specific).

ChoChiyo wrote:So many people think they know EXACTLY what God wants from us. Do we really? Are we really forced to march lock-step with every thing the Bible says--take everything literally and nothing metaphorically?

There are a great deal of things in the Bible that I believe are set in stone (the Ten Commandments), whereas other things are more loose/metaphorical.

I must say, a lot of the tales in the Bible are too fantastical to believe/require a suspension of disbelief and/or simple faith, but that doesn't mean disbelieving the technicalities of the tale keeps one from absorbing the moral value/message that said tale contains. Do I personally believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale? No. Do I still take something away that is lasting--something that teaches and improves me? Yes.

Now, where I live (the South), most people I know are very much literal interpreters of the Bible--everything in it is absolutely true; there is no metaphor. Whilst I respect their beliefs, I can't help but feel irked that these people somehow know that the Bible is completely A, or God wants B, etc. It reminds me of a politician who wants to improve our lives, yet he only has one course of action; it's not something I trust.

What does the Lord require of thee? To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

Micah 6:8

Books like Job, and Jonah were metaphorical in nature. However, most of the books of the Old Testament were historical accounts of that time. The books of the New testament were personal accounts of the apostles of Jesus Christ, and could be considered biographies...


IMO

Edge wrote:

What does the Lord require of thee? To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

Micah 6:8

That's a very good one.

i believe that God wants us to stop killing each other in His name.
and God doesn't want me to eat animals.

Edge wrote:

What does the Lord require of thee? To do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

Micah 6:8

Sounds good to me. Nothing in there about hating or discriminating against anyone. If, as many of the christians here assert, the over-riding message of christianity it love, then why are there all these other problems?

And there's my problem with the whole concept. Man has decided that he is able to speak for god, and to command other men on the basis of what they assume that god wants.

If god wants nothing more than what that verse reflects, (which I hope is true), then a lot of people are in for a nasty surprise. And I'm glad.

--Avatar

Furls Fire wrote:I believe the Ten Commandments pretty much lay down God's doctrine to His children. It's simple really, just walk the path of those Commandments and you live the life God wishes you too.

I don't pretend to know all He wants me to do, but I believe that I live my life the way He would wish me too. I follow the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus. Love, guides me. And God/Jesus are Love.

You know, seriously, I can't think of many people who live by the Ten Commandments...

And how does God expect us to act by these Ten Commandments? If he created us, he created to to enable us to break these vaunted "Ten Commandments". Why did he make us enable to break them? I mean if he didn't want them broken, why didn't he created us so we're unable to... I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard a work for a "God".

So if we take that into context, really, all Sin is God's fault. Because he enabled us to commit it. And he could have done differently, if he is really as powerful as the Bible makes out...

Darth Revan wrote:
And how does God expect us to act by these Ten Commandments? If he created us, he created to to enable us to break these vaunted "Ten Commandments". Why did he make us enable to break them? I mean if he didn't want them broken, why didn't he created us so we're unable to... I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard a work for a "God".

If he made us unable to break them, then we would have no free will--we'd be like robots programmed to say "I love you" when in truth there would be nothing there--like a doll with a tape recorder inside.

In my humble and imperfect understanding of all things religious, I believe that God gives us the choice to love him or not.

Where the problem comes in for me is that he lets us choose to love him or not, but if we don't, he sends us to hell.

That for me is a problem.

Set a cookie on the table and say to a child, eat the cookie or don't, it's up to you. (But if you eat it, I'll beat the shit out of you.)

I know there must be an answer that makes sense. I'm just struggling with it.

Set a cookie on the table and say to a child, eat the cookie or don't, it's up to you. (But if you eat it, I'll beat the shit out of you.)

That's the way I've always thought of it. God gives us the "gift" of life, but we live it his way, or he puts us into eternal torment. Not such a great gift really is it? That's like putting the kid in a room with a biscuit on the table, then scrawling on the wall "Eat the biscuit or don't, it's up to you. But if you do I'll take it back from inside your stomach then beat the shit out of you, and continue beating the shit out of you for all eternity."

He doesn't even know if it was you who wrote it there, or if you did, whether you'll know he's eaten it, or even care enough to come back and beat the shit out of him if he does eat it.

I think a lot of it depends on your interpretation of 'Hell'.

For me: I think Hell is eternal separation from God.

Which means that the choice He gives us, is: "Choose to love Me, or not - but if you choose not to love Me, you can't be with Me." Which makes perfect sense to me.

I'll give you a secular view of things as an anthropologist. God nor Jesus designed the 10 commandments they were created to help ancient Hebrews live in a society that they desperately needed to survive as a whole. Choosing God meant choosing to live within the confines and restrictions of that particular culture in a dangerous land with violent enemies, contagious disease, and short food supply.

Others choose a different path, for example, the Greeks. They had a very prosperous land, gentle climate, and a fair amount of living space. Their religious foundations were more fickle and less restrictive because their lives were so much easier.
Many Greeks would later become Christians. Why? It had a trump card. It offered one thing that the Greco-Roman world didn't-eternal, immortal bliss in heaven. The early Greeks didn't need a heaven many felt their lives were comparable already. After the strife affected by the Roman Empire the world was ripe for a new religion.

Personally, I think everyone knows what is right and good without a single piece of advice from anyone or anything they just refuse to listen to their conscience.

I'm not about to tell you not to be a Christian just be a good person first and go out of your way to help people when you can and everything else is a piece of cake.

Somehow, just being a good person doesn't feel right.

I feel like there is a greater truth and Good out there--it's just frustrating not to be able to get hold of it. (Though I do "feel" its presence often.)

I think you are probably underestimating what being a good person actually means but best of luck in your search.

I will say that love comes from people not a mythical christ. Sorry folks I hate to step on toes but we give love and we get love it is created from us not some outside source. You make the decision and to actually have free will you have to make a decision without predetermined consequences. Therefore this notion that you are with god or without him but he lets you choose is invalid.

I recommend you begin by setting aside the Bible and reading the Gnostic Gospels. And remember that religion has a temporal message. Christianity belongs to the 3rd century like Scientology belongs to the 20th. These things are made for the age and not the age for them just like religions are made for people not people for religion.

Don't worry, I'm sure you will find the answer you are looking for but not everyone finds the same answer.

Great posts there Kinslaughterer. I pretty much agree with everything you said, especially the foundation of the Ten Commandments, and the temporal message of any theology.

Basically, religions were a good idea at the time. They were the easiest way of convincing the people to live lives that would benefit the community as a whole, and increase its chances for survival. Afterall, its good genetic sense not to have children by your sister.

However, as time passed, and people became able to understand the reasoning behind their religious message, the method of conveying these rules, and the convincing premise behind them, should have changed too. It didn't.

--Avatar

Great posts, as always, Kins! Ages ago, you told me in the Think-Tank that you didn't believe in organized religion, but you did believe that something--some entity--must've created the universe. Er, that was you that told me that, wasn't it? Do you still feel that way; what's your thoughts on it nowadays? I'm just wondering! It's been so long since we've talked, bud! Lemme know!

Kinslaughterer wrote: I will say that love comes from people not a mythical christ. Sorry folks I hate to step on toes but we give love and we get love it is created from us not some outside source.

And I will say that God is the ultimate source of love, as He created us with the capacity to love. I'll also say that Christ is not a myth, He is real.

Kinslaughterer wrote: You make the decision and to actually have free will you have to make a decision without predetermined consequences.

Wrong. The only way to make a meaningful decision is if you're fully aware of the consequences.

Kinslaughterer wrote: Therefore this notion that you are with god or without him but he lets you choose is invalid.

No it's not, because your conclusion is based on a false premise.

Kinslaughterer wrote: ...religion has a temporal message...

An interesting notion, but completely illogical. The idea that a religion could be true for awhile, then somehow become not true, is patently false.

i also fail to see how the message of God could be temporal. are we now living in an enlightened age? did i not get the invite? because i see sin everwhere. i see man brutalizing himself and all that surrounds him. i see people crying out for an answer. and i fail to see that answer in anything that man has created. i see us wrestling with a culture of death. so when did mankind's problems get solved, and when will that solution be delivered to me?