Kevin's Watch

I have recently read By the River Piedra I sat down and I wept by Paulo Coelho, and The da Vinci Code by Dan Brown, and am now developing an interest in the sacred feminine and the lack of options for those wanting to pursue a religion/faith with more gender balance.

So if anyone has any information/stories/experiences to share about the sacred feminine, please do so.

PS - I am not saying that Jesus married Mary Magdalene or that they had a child. I'm not into conspiracy thoeries, so take them somewhere else. I'm simply looking for some discussion and fact sharing on the female side of religion and worship, both now and throughout history.

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The Maori of New Zealand have a concept which they call mana. Although it has no direct english translation, mana is best described as prestige, authority, social standing, or the respect in which one is held by the community/society in which one lives. It has a strong spiritual aspect.

Generally mana is earned. Warriors who won great battles had great mana, as did leaders who ruled wisely. In addition, mana can be inherited, although often an individual will need to prove themselves a worthy successor.

There is one type of mana however that is unique, and that is Mana Wahine, or the mana of women. In the various cultures of the Maori nations, women were held as sacred because they could bare children and thus bring new life into the world.

This crosses over into the world of tapu and noa, or sacred/forbidden and ordinary/accessable. Unlike many other cultures, the female genitalia are considered noa in Maori culture. Although women are revered for their gift of childbirth, this gift is not hidden but rather embraced and celebrated.

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Just a little starting point.

Sum sui generis
Vs

I read this, oh, years ago and cannot remember where.........apparently the Apache nation had a legend regarding a virgin birth, but it was the mother that was considered sacred, not the child.

I don't know how factual it is, but I always found it kind of interesting.

Duck

I have heard some people refer to the "Holy Spirit" as the feminine aspect of the Christian Trinity--God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit--as it was said to be sent as a comforter ie nurturer=mother figure??

Then there is always Kali...Indian Mother/Destroyer Goddess.





www.exoticindiaart.com/kali.htm

Extremely interesting, but extremely scary as well.

Well, my own deity is a woman, created as a reaction against proscriptive, dominating masculine gods.

Many cultures, at many times, have venerated woman for the generative powers they perceived them to have. Its not a bad idea. But eventually, control of those powers became important to men, and thus we have the situation of the last few thousand years, with women as property.

Their (womens) big mistake of course, was demanding equality, when they should have demanded superiority. If they had, they might have gotten something more like actual equality.

--Avatar

I thought this book was quite enjoyable when I read it a couple of years ago:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/ ... 1?v=glance

The Red Tent retells the Biblical story of Jacob and his family, but through the viewpoints of the women.

I'd recommend "When God was a Woman" by Merlin Stone. I found it very interesting.

Their (womens) big mistake of course, was demanding equality, when they should have demanded superiority. If they had, they might have gotten something more like actual equality.

How would they have justified demanding superiority? If someone demanded superiority over me without a good reason I'd tell them in no kind way that they weren't getting it, and I'd fight to remain equal with them. I doubt women would have gotten equality if they demanded superiority. I think they'd have gotten even less.

Originally, Jehovah did not exist but rather was formed from El, Asherah, He and Anath, the holy family. Later the Skehinah replaced Asherah as the female holy spirit.
The creater goddess of the Oglala Lakota is the White Buffalo Woman who taught them to hunt buffalo and use their various parts effectively so nothing would go to waste.
The religion of many prehistoric groups focused on the reverence of female fertility symbols such as the Venus of Willendorf. Essentially to prehistoric humanity female+fertility=life (continued existence of their cultures)

Kinslaughterer wrote:Originally, Jehovah did not exist...

Jehovah has always existed, and was not 'formed' from anything or anyone else. The Holy Spirit is indeed the feminine/mother aspect of God.

Edge wrote:

Kinslaughterer wrote:Originally, Jehovah did not exist...

Jehovah has always existed, and was not 'formed' from anything or anyone else. The Holy Spirit is indeed the feminine/mother aspect of God.

Matter of opinion really, or at least, of Faith. I think that Kinslaughterer meant "historically" rather than "originally" though. All else aside, it is clear that "primitive" historical tribes did not worship Jehovah/Yaweh and, as he says, deities were often believed to be female, perhaps because only females gave birth to new life, and thus the life of earth must have come from a woman.

Makes sense.

--Avatar

I've read that this whole change from Goddess-worshipping, polytheistic religion to a single male deity was started - maybe made possible at all - by essentially one thing; when humanity somehow (I don't know how, or don't remember, or something) found out that men also contributes to creating children. I think that makes lots of sense as well.

Pfft, I've always worshipped women. Nothing new to me.

But isn't the Holy Spirit still male? So the feminine aspect of God is a man? That seems...odd.

Besides, of all three aspects of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit always seemed the most ignored to me.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Variol Son, I could talk about this with you for days and days on end, I don't know where to begin

Edit:

No seriously, I don't know where to begin, but I've been questing after better understanding of the feminine divine for some time, and if you wanty to compare notes, I'm all for it. Also, I've been trying to begin to identify with the ideas of masculine spirituality, which I don't even begin to understand.

A good place for me and the feminine spirit has been mythology, however, and my own subconscious. You're in a deep pit of subconscious psychology when you're trying to get into that stuff.

I am a huge fan of Mythology Jem. Used to love old Egyptian and Greek stuff especially. Isis was one of my favourite goddesses ( ) when I was younger.

I'm just starting out here though, so I may not have many notes to share.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Well, I'm not really looking for notes. Are you still interested in this? What I'd really like is for someone to bounce ideas off of, and also to send some ideas my way. This is a totally solitary journey for me so far, and I'd really like some outside input, primarily because outside input can make you reflect on your own ideas in a thoroughly different way.

Actually, one of the things that's interesting to me is that when I'm exploring the idea of the Sacred Feminine I'm finding the virtues and feelings that are associated with it are things that I had already put a greater emphasis on. It's like finding out that my male God was actually just a woman dressed up as a guy. Heheheh.....
One of the things that's been bothering me because of this is that I happen to be male, and I don't really put any value and don't really have any understanding of what virtues might fit under the idea of 'sacred' masculine. I can't believe that my gender is somehow 'less' than the opposite gender, but I'm having a lot of trouble identifying those traits. Perhaps because I haven't fully developed them in myself?

Either way, what have you been thinking about this?

I was considering the myth of Artemis, bathing nude in the moonlight in her forests. A hunter with his hounds finds the spring where she is bathing, and sees her naked. Horrified by the intrusion, she turns him into a stag, and he is hunted down by his dogs and killed.
To me, the myth speaks of the masculine intellect, the hunting/seeking analyst side, basically Greek western thought patterns, trying to force its way into understanding of the feminine. It tries to pick it apart, cut it up, and label it. If it were to succeed, what that would accomplish is REMOVING the MYSTERY of the FEMININE.
Which is of course totally impossible. Mystery is an inherent part to the feminine, from the masculine perspective. It's also possible that mystery is a part of the masculine, from the feminine perspective. And either way, if you succeeded in 'defining' the feminine entirely, it would be made less than the masculine that was able to define it.

So what actually happens when the masculine tries to define the feminine? Disaster. Always disaster, and emotional pain. Just think of this quote. "Oh, I know women like the back of my hand. I know how women think" Have you ever heard that from someone, and didn't think they were being an arrogant snot? I know I haven't. Not only does it probably lead to the unhappiness of whatever women take the guy seriously, it also leads him to unhappiness. After he thinks he understands the feminine, he is cut off from it and cast adrift with only one half of a functional spirit.

Whatcha think?

What I'd really like is for someone to bounce ideas off of, and also to send some ideas my way. This is a totally solitary journey for me so far, and I'd really like some outside input, primarily because outside input can make you reflect on your own ideas in a thoroughly different way.

Jem/Variol Son-sorry it took so long for me to get over here and sorry this post tonight is going to be brief. I am glad to find this thread dedicated to the sacred feminine- it is part of what I truly believe to be true- that there is one sacred, ultimate entity, that it has both male and female aspects and that we are truly a part of what makes up the sacred whole. I see in myself one part of what makes up the ultimate being, Creator, Goddess, God, whatever name you choose. I cannot subscribe to Christian ideology, because I believe there is divinity in all of us, in the oceans, rivers, fields, forests, animals, trees, rocks.... nor can I believe I need to worship on a particular day, in a particular place and have another human intercede for me with the Divine. I believe in the natural cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth, in the circle of life and the spiral of incarnation and reincarnation. None of this is possible without divinity having both a male and female aspect.

One of the things that's been bothering me because of this is that I happen to be male, and I don't really put any value and don't really have any understanding of what virtues might fit under the idea of 'sacred' masculine. I can't believe that my gender is somehow 'less' than the opposite gender, but I'm having a lot of trouble identifying those traits. Perhaps because I haven't fully developed them in myself?

No creature is born to a male alone, nor to a female. The masculine and feminine represent separate and equal halves of the sacred whole and compliment each other while at the sme time contradicting. I hope I am expressing myself the way I want to. The belief is so deep seated in me it is difficult to put into words. If you want a good reference, read "The Spiral Dance" by Starhawk. She represents to me what is best in all of us. Blessed Be to you and to everyone on the Watch.

Kym

I don't believe many people even understand the God of the Bible. I don't believe anywhere in there does it mention the Holy Spirit is male. It is not human! Therefore, calling "Him" male or female makes no sense. Same w/God Himself. God refers to Himself as a Father and Mother, in that He has all the aspects of man and woman, b/c He created them. He created man first and gave him leadership roles, and after the fall, the curse that he would rule over the woman. Not in the role he was created for, but rather in the abusive way we know has happened. And many think women are put down in the Bible. Where? Read some of the stories, see the influence women have over men, just like Eve had over Adam, Bathseba over David, Delilah over Samson, Jezebel over Ahab, etc. We're like, duh, I'll do anything for you. Who makes most of the dumb mistakes in the Bible? Men! There's also a book called Ester where she saves the Jewish nation from extinction. Pretty impressive. I don't find the Christian Bible to have gender imbalance.

Kymbierlee, what do you mean there is divinity in all things? They were all created by God, but they do not have spiritual matter. Also, where does Christian ideology, in other words the Bible, talk about having to worship on a particular day, in a particular place, through a particular person?

How could there not be divinity in all things? At least from your perspective, you say that they were all created by God. How can something, which comes into being by the infinite divine force, not have divinity in it? What else does it have in it, if not divinity?

Kymbierlee, what do you mean there is divinity in all things? They were all created by God, but they do not have spiritual matter. Also, where does Christian ideology, in other words the Bible, talk about having to worship on a particular day, in a particular place, through a particular person?

In my beliefs, they do. I don't recognize the Christian God, per se, nor Christian ideology. To me, divinity runs through and can be found in all things and magick can also be found in all things because all are part of the One.

As for the second part of your question Exodus: 20-33